PCN from New Generation Parking Management

[Squizz84]

I've recently received the attached PCN from New Generation Parking Management, relating to time my vehicle spent in a private car park, Waterfront 2000, CF10.

 

The letter I've received asks for £100, reduced to £60 if paid within 7 days - and gives the reason for the charge as being "on roadway".

 

I have blanked out the photos, but they were clearly taken by somebody with a handheld camera.

 

I have also attached a photo of one of the signs, although it would be reasonable to assume that the roadside where the vehicle was parked was before you had actually entered the 'car park'.

 

The company I work for has allocated parking bays in this car park, but the vehicle was not in one of them on this day. It's possible to park just around the corner on 'pay and display' side of the road spaces for around £5 per day.

 

I'm not sure who actually owns the car park - is there an easy way to find this out?

 

Normally, I would have just ignored this letter but having had a quick search it seems that this is no longer the standard advice.

 

Are you able, please, to advise on how best to respond to this company (or if I should indeed just ignore their threat?).

 

Many thanks in advance,

Edited September 23, 2015 by Squizz84

[silverfox1961]

Hi,

As NGP are members of the BPA, this will be easy to handle.

 

Your first step is to appeal the ticket. Do not name the driver. Always speak in the third party (i.e 'the driver')

 

You can put any reason you like as they will reject it out of hand but by doing so, they must issue a POPLA code so that you can go to the appeals service. This will be your chance to fully appeal. This will cost NGP money (not you). Even if POPLA did reject your appeal, the only way NGP could get anything from you is to take court action however (as far as my checking will let me) they have taken action in 2014/15 in precisely zero cases.

[armadillo71]

Dates please...

 

Date of parking event.

 

Date of NTD if there was one.

 

Date the NTK was received.

 

Then we can word the appeal correctly.

[Squizz84]

Date of parking event 07/09/2015, date of notice 10/09/2015 - not sure what date the letter was received as I was out of the country and returned to this on my doormat on Monday!

[armadillo71]

Thank you.

Not much time now, but the NTK and signage contradict each other...

 

The signage states that it is a contractual charge, whilst the NTK states that it is for breach of contract...

 

It can't be both.

[ericsbrother]

OK the letter through the post is not compliant with the PoFA so they have now lost the right to claim anything from the keeper of the vehicle. In case they think that they get 2 bites of the cherry wait another month and see what else comes through the post. At the moment their claim is from the driver so they have breached the DPA by making a false declaration to the DVLA to get the keeper details. You can write and complain to the DVLA if you wish but it will have little effect (but there is always hope that NGPM get barred from accessing the database).

So, do not contact them at all and make a date on your calendar and file the ticket and letter away in case they send another begging letter in a months time. If they do you should respond to that and tell them no keeper liability as protocols of PoFA not adhered to so get lost.

[Squizz84]

I'm not entirely clear on why the letter through the post is not compliant? Just to be clear, there was no ticket left on my car (as I might have implied?). Would you mind explaining please?

[Squizz84]

Thank you.

Not much time now, but the NTK and signage contradict each other...

 

The signage states that it is a contractual charge, whilst the NTK states that it is for breach of contract...

 

It can't be both.

 

Is this what I should be using as a response to them, in conjunction with the advice offered by silverfox1961?

[armadillo71]

Yes.

Always state that as RK you are not liable for the charge at the outset.

Do not name the driver.

Post up a draft and we will comment on it.

[Squizz84]

Is it acceptable to just send this templated letter from the Wiki here? It doesn't seem that there's any need for me to add anything to this unless it will make them go away quicker if they're just going to ignore it anyway?

 

----------------------

 

To whom it may concern,

 

Re: Your letter dated XX Reference YY

 

I acknowledge receipt of your captioned letter. It seems that you have got my details from the DVLA and I confirm I am the keeper of the vehicle in question. You need to take this matter up with the driver concerned.

 

In the meantime I absolutely deny your claim that the amount claimed, or any amount at all, is due to you from me.

 

Yours faithfully

[Homer67]

That would be an out of date response when you could just ignore these invoices, also it mentions 'captioned letter' which sends my Freeman of the Land twaddle meter up. Don't use it. You have been given the advice above, make your appeal as the RK of the vehicle and request a POPLA code if they refuse it.

[Squizz84]

That would be an out of date response when you could just ignore these invoices, also it mentions 'captioned letter' which sends my Freeman of the Land twaddle meter up. Don't use it. You have been given the advice above, make your appeal as the RK of the vehicle and request a POPLA code if they refuse it.

 

Ah, thanks for that - I took it directly from consumerwiki - will try and get another draft sorted soon instead.

[ericsbrother]

you said you had a pcn, which is usually attached to the vehicle wheras a notice to keeper is sent out using different parts of the PoFA to make it compliant. Timings are everything so my comments were based on an attached ticket.

As you are appealing to the parking co the exact wording of your appeal wont matter too much as they arent in the business to be honest and reasonable so by all means say that the demand sent to the keeper is for a breach of contract so you do not agree that their liquidated damages caused by your vehicle being on a road are £100 and demand proof of the assignment to make claims in NGPM's own name from the landowner and a schedule of loss for you to consider. If NGPM will not or cannot produce such proof then you demadn that the matter is determined by an appeal to POPLA and you require a valid POPLA code.

[Squizz84]

Another attempt, borrowed heavily from another forum post here. I'd much rather send something short and sweet though if appropriate (along the lines of rejecting any liability and simply asking for a POPLA code?)

 

--------------

 

 

To whom it may concern,

 

RE: Your letter dated XX, reference YY.

 

As the keeper of the vehicle in question, I am not obliged or liable to meet any demands for payment that you are insisting on.

 

Any and all liability would be denied on the basis of the following:

 

1. The amount is neither a genuine tariff/fee for parking, nor is it based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss.

2. You are not the landowner and do not have locus standi.

3. Your signage was not sufficiently prominent nor clearly worded and consideration did not flow from both parties, so there was no contract.

4. The signage states that it is a contractual charge, whilst the Notice to Keeper states that it is for breach of contract.

 

If you choose not to cancel this invoice you must issue a rejection letter in reply to my appeal, explaining:

1. The legal basis of your charge

2. Proof of your locus standi to offer contracts to drivers at this site.

3. Your explanation of the consideration that you believe flowed from the driver, and from yourselves.

4. A copy of the signage site map and close-up pictures of the signs in situ at the time, taken at a comparable time of day in similar light conditions.

5. The means to make an appeal to POPLA or the IAS.

 

Kind regards,

[Squizz84]

you said you had a pcn, which is usually attached to the vehicle wheras a notice to keeper is sent out using different parts of the PoFA to make it compliant. Timings are everything so my comments were based on an attached ticket.

As you are appealing to the parking co the exact wording of your appeal wont matter too much as they arent in the business to be honest and reasonable so by all means say that the demand sent to the keeper is for a breach of contract so you do not agree that their liquidated damages caused by your vehicle being on a road are £100 and demand proof of the assignment to make claims in NGPM's own name from the landowner and a schedule of loss for you to consider. If NGPM will not or cannot produce such proof then you demadn that the matter is determined by an appeal to POPLA and you require a valid POPLA code.

 

The only thing I received was the letter attached to this thread with 'parking charge notice' written in huge letters in the header! There was nothing left on the vehicle - another letter draft is above.

[ericsbrother]

The method they have chosen to use for sending out demands is usually used when ANPR is involved, not someone plodding around a car park on foot but that doesnt mean it cant be used as they have, their choice. However, it also means that their employee failed to mitigate any loss caused by your vehicle being there

[Squizz84]

Another attempt, borrowed heavily from another forum post here. I'd much rather send something short and sweet though if appropriate (along the lines of rejecting any liability and simply asking for a POPLA code?)

 

--------------

 

 

To whom it may concern,

 

RE: Your letter dated XX, reference YY.

 

As the keeper of the vehicle in question, I am not obliged or liable to meet any demands for payment that you are insisting on.

 

Any and all liability would be denied on the basis of the following:

 

1. The amount is neither a genuine tariff/fee for parking, nor is it based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss.

2. You are not the landowner and do not have locus standi.

3. Your signage was not sufficiently prominent nor clearly worded and consideration did not flow from both parties, so there was no contract.

4. The signage states that it is a contractual charge, whilst the Notice to Keeper states that it is for breach of contract.

 

If you choose not to cancel this invoice you must issue a rejection letter in reply to my appeal, explaining:

1. The legal basis of your charge

2. Proof of your locus standi to offer contracts to drivers at this site.

3. Your explanation of the consideration that you believe flowed from the driver, and from yourselves.

4. A copy of the signage site map and close-up pictures of the signs in situ at the time, taken at a comparable time of day in similar light conditions.

5. The means to make an appeal to POPLA or the IAS.

 

Kind regards,

 

Is anyone able to advise on whether this is good to go please?

 

Many thanks!

[ericsbrother]

send it, dont forget that they wont answer your points but just give a " the charge was correctly issued" generic rubbish answer. However, that damages their chances of making a successful court claim further down the line as they ahvent done their best to sort the matter out.

[Squizz84]

Received a reply from them on Saturday, have attached photos of the letter. Can you advise on how to proceed please, or point me towards the most current resource to deal with this?

 

Many thanks!

[ericsbrother]

as said, generic tosh, how can they include a proportion of theor costs as solicitors costs when they 1) dont pay them until it gets as far as court and 2) they recover those costs if they win at court.

They also mention BEAVIS, which is going thorugh to supreme court so at the moment cannot be used as a case precedent without saying that it is subject to appeal so no gold star for them.

However, whta they ignore is proving they have a right to make a claim in the first place. Funny that.

[ericsbrother]

So now you can appeal to POPLA using the code given to you. I would recommend posting your appeal as the online form is very limiting in the criteria that you can choose for the reason for your appeal.

Your appeal could start with the argument that the signage is in a car park beyond the roadway on which the vehicle was parked and so that signage applies to the area within its boundaries and not the road itself. The signs do not mention the approach to the area covered by the parking notice and so it is your belief that this road is the public highway and not part of the private land covered by the sonditions of parking.

Secondly, You asked for and have not received sight of the contract that assigns the rights of the landowner to NGP to enter into contracts and make claims in theitr own name. You believe that any contract they have is with a third party and so those rights they are claiming do not exist.

Thirdly, in your appeal to NGP they provided a breakdown of their losses for a breach of contract yet the signs make out that it is a contrcatual obligation to pay rather than a breach of contract giving rise to a claim for damages. It is one or the other and as their rejection of the appeal is on matters relating to a breach of contract the signage is incorrect and therefore no contractual obligation exists.

Lastly, you do not believe that NGP have planning permission for their signs under the Planning regs 2007 for advertising display haordings. This means that no contrcat can be foremd as it is a criminal offence to place the signs there without PP

[Squizz84]

Just to provide some closure on this, I appealed to POPLA as per the advice above - but did it through the Website. Once I had appealed, the Parking Company were required to provide their evidence to POPLA - which they apparently did. However, I was not able to see the evidence they had provided, so was unable to argue against it. I then messaged POPLA asking them to make the evidence available to me, and they responded saying that the Parking Company would need to send it out to me seperately.

 

I then began waiting for this evidence to arrive in the post. For 4 consecutive Mondays I sent an email to POPLA informing them that the company had still not provided me with the evidence, and each time POPLA put my appeal on hold for a week and contacted the company, who said they would send it.

 

This afternoon, I received the following email:

 

--------------------------------------

 

 

Dear X X

 

Thank you for submitting your parking charge Appeal to POPLA.

 

An Appeal has been opened with the reference XXXXXXXXX .

 

New Generation Parking Management have told us they do not wish to contest the Appeal. This means that your Appeal is successful and you do not need to pay the parking charge.

 

Yours sincerely

 

POPLA Team

 

---------------------------

 

So there we go, the appeal was lodged on 26th of October and successful on 4th of December.

 

 

Thank you to all of you who provided help and advice on this!

[ericsbrother]

Good for you.

By not supplying the required evidence they can carry on was they were rather than risk a class action for knowingly issuing demands when they have no authority to do so.