Volkswagen scandal

[Conniff]

VW shares are down 30% so far this week.

 

Volkswagen is facing multiple investigations in the United States, including, reports say, a criminal probe from the Department of Justice.

They follow an admission by the world's biggest carmaker that it deceived US regulators in exhaust emissions tests.

A DoJ criminal investigation would be serious, as federal authorities can bring charges with severe penalties against a firm and individuals.

 

Late on Tuesday, New York state's top lawyer announced an investigation.

 

.

 

I've said time and time again that there is nothing special about German cars and that it was Germany themselves who made up the saying 'German engineering', so not only are there attempts to con the world that their products are better, we now find they deliberately lie and cheat about their products with fraudulent dirty tricks in order to increase sales.

 

What could be the wider implication of all this for VW motorists in the UK?

 

When the modification software is removed, what If the cars no longer meet MoT emission regulations, they should be refused a pass certificate so will owners be entitled to their money back, or if they do meet the regulations, will the higher emissions put them into a higher road tax bracket and if so, who will pay.

 

VW can't just modify the software on the cars to meet emissions regs as that reduces the engine power output so owners will not be driving the car they were sold.

 

This could turn into a very complicated tangle and VWs announcement of £4.7bn set aside might be equal to a waiters tip when the full implication are known.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Conniff

[silverfox1961]

This scandal will go on for years I believe. VW will have to do a lot of sucking up to potential customers to sell the cars.

 

One way of starting the process is by stopping the factory testing for all cars and produce facts for normal outdoor driving (urban, motorway etc.) and more important, supply the cars to an independant tester who has no financial interest in the company.

 

As for the software issue, more complicated as they will be reluctant to let the codes out just in case they get hacked but they should still be tested for hidden codes that effect emissions.

[unclebulgaria67]

If you watched BBC Newsnight last night, they reminded viewers that they had been told about the issue at the end of 2014. The names of manufacturers was not mentioned at the time, but they said some used software settings to fool tests.

 

Big problem in terms of diesel, but there is some suggestion that petrol cars have been fixed to pass tests at certain emmision levels.

 

Before they fine VW huge sums, they need to look at other manufacturers, so they can do it in a fair way. They will need to look at the whole issue, as it affects road tests, vehicle taxes based on emissions and whether the vehicles need to be recalled for work to be done.

[renegadeimp]

Give it a few months and it will be business as usual.

[Conniff]

I doubt that very much with the US Criminal department now looking into it. There are also in excess of 11 million cars to be sorted, that will certainly take more than a few months.

[unclebulgaria67]

Quite possible the cars won't be sorted out. Can't see that the cars can be fixed easily. The software changed the settings so it produced less emissions, but they probably can't run like that for too long without consequences. The cost of making the changes would be enormous.

 

There will be a process of experts working out what can be done, VW who would be paying will no doubt contest it if it is expensive. Could end up in the courts for years.

 

There will be other manufacturers involved.

[renegadeimp]

Quite possible the cars won't be sorted out. Can't see that the cars can be fixed easily. The software changed the settings so it produced less emissions, but they probably can't run like that for too long without consequences. The cost of making the changes would be enormous.

 

There will be a process of experts working out what can be done, VW who would be paying will no doubt contest it if it is expensive. Could end up in the courts for years.

 

There will be other manufacturers involved.

 

Settings were only change when it detected a test in progress. It then reverted to its usual thing.

[unclebulgaria67]

Settings were only change when it detected a test in progress. It then reverted to its usual thing.

 

Yes, but if the normal engine/exhaust running produces more emissions, that is what the engine is capable of over a long period. The engine probably cannot run in tow emission testing setting for a long period, as presumably if this was possible they would not have messed around with the software.

 

Hence the engine, fuel and exhaust system will probably need to be modified in some cases to meet with environment standards. Bloody expensive and possibly not straightforward. It can't just be a case of amending the software.

[sparkeyrjp]

Are VAG engines so poor that in order to compete with other manufactures , VAG are having to cheat to get good emission readings , or are ALL manufactures at it ?

For instance I cant believe that, say , BMW or Ford technology is so good that they can match or exceed VAG on emissions without a bit of “tinkering “

[tobyjugg2]

Are VAG engines so poor that in order to compete with other manufactures , VAG are having to cheat to get good emission readings , or are ALL manufactures at it ?

For instance I cant believe that, say , BMW or Ford technology is so good that they can match or exceed VAG on emissions without a bit of “tinkering “

 

It is possible, but unlikely.

Examples

A far more expensive to manufacture optimally shaped cylinder head will improve both fuel efficiency and power output.

Engine management systems are made to run on very poor quality fuel so don't make best use of the quality fuels (when not watered down) generally available in western Europe.

 

Some more premium brand cars have more efficient engines and better management systems. Some budget brands have lower fuel efficiency but lower power as the management systems try to keep the emissions under control.

 

BUT the reports on the air quality statistics seem to indicate that the majority of diesels on the road really CANNOT be meeting the required levels.

 

The problem is that it could be mainly the massive lorries and old vans causing it. Undoubtedly there will now be closer looks at all manufacturers.

[j66]

We only measure smoke on diesels during the MOT, all the fuss is about Nitrogen Oxide (NOx) emissions, so there won't be a MOT problem.

[sparkeyrjp]

It is possible, but unlikely.

Examples

A far more expensive to manufacture optimally shaped cylinder head will improve both fuel efficiency and power output.

Engine management systems are made to run on very poor quality fuel so don't make best use of the quality fuels (when not watered down) generally available in western Europe.

 

Some more premium brand cars have more efficient engines and better management systems. Some budget brands have lower fuel efficiency but lower power as the management systems try to keep the emissions under control.

 

BUT the reports on the air quality statistics seem to indicate that the majority of diesels on the road really CANNOT be meeting the required levels.

 

The problem is that it could be mainly the massive lorries and old vans causing it. Undoubtedly there will now be closer looks at all manufacturers.

 

So what you are saying , correct me if I am wrong , is that the likes of Ford , PSA, GM , are creating ,at a cost , better engines, BUT are able to compete on price at the level of VAG products , I think NOT.

The other manufactures would have dissected VW products and examined every last component , all the software would have been unravelled nothing would have been missed no matter how deep in the OS it was hidden . To expose VAG would put their own systems at risk , so they have to keep quiet .

Remember years ago when the original BMC Mini was launched , Ford took one apart and said it was impossible to build the car , sell it at the price it was, and make a profit .

They are all still at it

 

I agree on the main culprits though , clear London streets of Trucks , older buses, Taxis , and the air would be clean

[king12345]

I proudly drive a 1998 Passat 1.8T that if connected to an emission sensor it would make it explode.

But boy... It goes like a rocket!

[tobyjugg2]

So what you are saying , correct me if I am wrong , is that the likes of Ford , PSA, GM , are creating ,at a cost , better engines, BUT are able to compete on price at the level of VAG products , I think NOT.

 

No I'm not saying that, only that differences are possible at a cost.

 

Actually the cheaper ford (peugot) diesel engines and the like generally report less power (often quite significantly lower) than the more expensive similar capacity BMW/audi etc ones, which would equate to more cost to build and more expensive to buy.

 

The wildcard being the profit margins made on sale.

[tobyjugg2]

Shame they cant filter NO and No2 and just leave the N2O.

That would be a laugh.

Make the world a much happier place.

[Conniff]

There are a lot of threads on here where there has been a manufacturing/design fault with their cars and when the poster has made a claim, they don't want to know and a long fight has ensued.

[unclebulgaria67]

There are a lot of threads on here where there has been a manufacturing/design fault with their cars and when the poster has made a claim, they don't want to know and a long fight has ensued.

 

Yes there have been many such cases over the years. There were a number of deaths linked to the Ford Sierra, which allegedly became unstable in certain cross winds. A British family were killed in a Sierra on a trip to France, which was allegedly linked to the design of the car. I remember working for a company when it was reported and from what i remember it dragged on for years. Not sure any successful case was made, as car manufacturers have huge resources to counter legal cases made by people.

 

It is alledged in the Mail today that some in the German government may have been aware of the VW issues many months ago. Of course it is not good for Germanys reputation and i am sure US authorities will be looking at other manufacturers.

[tobyjugg2]

There are a lot of threads on here where there has been a manufacturing/design fault with their cars and when the poster has made a claim, they don't want to know and a long fight has ensued.

 

This isn't 'a poster' making a claim Conniff,

and I think few believe its likely to be just 'German Cars' who 'deliberately lie and cheat about their products with fraudulent dirty tricks in order to increase sales' as you posted, particularly given that Ford among others had this years ago, and few cars ever meet the sales blurb claims.

 

A friend of mine is a rampant classic Jaguar apologist but even he says that he wished they met the spin.

 

Look on the bright side, it gives all the 'anything not from my town/group' haters fuel for their bigotry to keep them happy for a while until hopefully some real truths come out of the issue, and may result in some real examination of the area and changes which will benefit our health despite the cost.

[Conniff]

There is a big difference between 'spin' and deliberate 'Fraud' which this German company has concienciously done, there is also a difference in poor design and deliberate fraud.

 

I know it's not a poster making the claim, but is shows the contempt this 'German' company has for customers or is that just UK customers.

[king12345]

Just to remind everyone, the software was installed on cars for the usa market.

I haven't read anything about the uk market ... Yet!

[tobyjugg2]

There is a big difference between 'spin' and deliberate 'Fraud'

 

Surely deception is deception whatever you call it (spin, exaggeration, etc), its just a matter of degree, although I do believe that the level of deception/lying and its impact should be carefully considered in deciding the penalties.

Few things are really black and white.

[tobyjugg2]

Just to remind everyone, the software was installed on cars for the usa market.

I haven't read anything about the uk market ... Yet!

 

Quick easy check, although not definitive:

If the claimed figures for the models in the UK are the same as those in the US, its likely they are using the same engine management, or are at least further lying.

Edited September 24, 2015 by tobyjugg2
deleted a bit added re Skoda

[Conniff]

They confirmed they have used the same practice in the EU.

[unclebulgaria67]

They confirmed they have used the same practice in the EU.

 

VW produce engines for other companies in Europe e.g Seat, Skoda. So other makes may be involved.

[Conniff]

It's not the engines themselves, it's the engine management system.