Rail Ticket Validity to next stop ?

[andydd]

Any of the rail experts have a view on this ?

 

My local TOC (C2C) seems to be tying itself in knots over whether a ticket valid from one station is also valid to the next stop as the cost is the same for both.

 

So far I've been told, they ARE valid, they ARE NOT valid, or they are valid only if the ticket is a weekly season but not a daily one (this makes little sense as the criteria, i.e. the cost is the same, applies equally to both).

 

The advice given here > https://www.ircas.co.uk/docs/c2c_Penalty_Fares_Leaflet.pdf would imply tickets are NOT valid but one must assume if permission has been given then this wouldn't apply ?

[king12345]

Strictly talking they're not valid because you would be travelling beyond the point of validity.

Most revenue inspector will know that the price is the same and just advise you to purchase a ticket valid for that station next time.

However, you could find a "by the book inspector" and it would be penalty fare time.

[fkofilee]

Rule of thumb is simple.

 

To and from the stations listed on the ticket. Stations before your destination fine, stations after you destination are a nono...

[unclebulgaria67]

Rail fares don't make any sense anyway. I was looking earlier and some longer journeys were cheaper, than getting on at a later station, to get to the destination.

 

You need a valid ticket from the station you start from to the final station. Some stations are linked, so you can get the train at either. I think there are some in the London area where this is the case.

[timbo58]

I would agree with fkofilee here, a ticket is only valid for the journey (and route) it describes.

Hence it is largely irrelevant if there isn't a 'sum' avoided by travelling onward.

 

The type of ticket is nonsense IMHO.

 

If you have been given permission 'in what form and by whom' is the important point, since in which case it matters not what ticket you have or what form it is, since permission to travel can negate the need for a ticket at all.

[andydd]

Thanks for the replies.

 

I would point out that most times I have been asked then staff have said its ok, I also have specific emails from the TOC telling me its ok, surely they would be estopped from issuing any penalty fare/or fine. ?

 

See below

 

"Thank you for your response. I am sorry for the confusion in regards to your ticket enquiry.

I have spoken with our Head of Revenue Protection who has confimed Richard's email to you in November last year is correct.

'Firstly, I can confirm that Season Tickets valid from Westcliff would also be valid to travel from Southend Central and vice versa. This is because tickets from these two stations are priced the same. Please note that this is only the case for Season Tickets (weekly or longer) and if you hold a daily ticket from Westcliff to Fenchurch Street then this would not be valid to travel from (or to) Southend Central.

 

These rules also apply to tickets purchased on a smartcard. If you purchase a weekly ticket online from Southend Central to Fenchurch Street then you can travel from Westcliff on the first (and indeed any) day of usage. You will need to touch your smartcard on the barriers and this will load the product onto the card.'

 

I am sorry for any inconvenience caused and will ensure the Customer Relations team are briefed on this matter.

Once again, thank you for for taking the time to contact us."

 

I have mailed back again asking about the legality of the above advice and why it contradicts the IRCAS Penalty Fare advice I linked above, telling customers two different things is wholly inappropriate in my opinion.

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, this can be highly confusing, but timbo58 is right. Where there is a specific instruction / agreement to the effect shown in the response from the TOC (as above) which makes clear that specific season ticket is accepted as valid for both stations, then it should be accepted as such without question by RP staff

 

The same cannot be said for single use point-to-point tickets, just because the fare paid may be the same.

 

It has been ruled that to be accepted as valid any ticket must be valid for all of the following: The day, date, time of train, class of accommodation and places identified on the ticket. (Gillingham 1881)

 

Stations identified on the ticket are usually shown clearly as to and from and generally speaking the ticket is available at those in between unless restrictions on that ticket state otherwise.

[andydd]

Thanks for the responses, I keep a copy of the email easily accessible on my phone

 

The introduction of a Smartcard system has alas added further confusion into the mix, as now I don't have a 'ticket' just a Smartcard, when I get off at the stop past my destination the card wont open the barriers (unlike the Oyster system which uses actual zones) and I have found that gate staff don't have a reader to actually see what's on my ticket (it could be nothing for all they know !). I have had some conversations with (agency) ticket staff and they are often confused as to what they are supposed to do in this situation.

 

Its a real pity that this confusion exists, when it could easily be removed, by having the Smartcards operate in Zones as the Oyster system does (as C2C does further up the line past Upminister).

[andydd]

Oh Ive got another reply back but its not easy reading !

 

Thank you for your response.

The contract you enter into when purchasing a ticket is the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. It states the following:

 

(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:

(i) a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing trains;

(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or

(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide.

 

If you ask them to, the Ticket Seller must advise you on whether your intended route is valid with your ticket.

 

(b) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within the zone or zones shown on the ticket. © Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the “permitted routes” (d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take: (i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or (ii) the most direct route. These restrictions will be shown on the ticket. (e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate that would have entitled you to travel by that route.

 

This doesn't apply to Season tickets on our route as an easement is in place. Our Retail Fares manual confirms Season tickets originating from Southend East, Southend Central and Westcliff are also available for travel to/from Southend East, Southend Central and Westcliff.

 

The Penalty Fare information applies to daily tickets. If you are travelling to Southend Central on a ticket valid for Westcliff, then a Penalty Fare may be incurred however, this does not apply to Season tickets due to the easement in place.

 

I have logged your comments regarding our staff at Southend Central station being confused with the validity of tickets on Smartcards however, the same rules apply whether the ticket is on paper or electronic.

 

I hope this clarifies the matter however, please let me know if any further information is required.

 

I have no idea what the 'easement' or Retail Fares manual is though and its the first time I have heard of such things !