PCN issued by Athens (t/a AS parking)

[bluebox39]

hi all, firstly, a pre-thanks for any help, comments and advice aimed my direction.

 

i recieved a PCN on the 11.8.15 in Town view car park, newquay.

 

The PCN was issued at 17.50, the 24h ticket i purchased expired at 17.40, they now want £100, as the original £60 "goodwill gesture" has expired.

 

The NTK arrived the other day from them, stating the actual PCN was issued at 17.51, not the 17.50 the initial PCN states.

 

Also, the machine was issuing tickets with spelling errors of the car park on, all of them say "town veiw" as opposed to town view.

 

The NTK states that the appeals process is no longer available to me, so my question basically is, where to go from here?

 

im feeling the £100 is pretty damn steep, considering they robbed me of £7 per day for 5 days parking as it is, (i was there for a week).

 

my only excuse is that the ticket machine wouldnt accept my £2 coins on day 2 of my holiday, and i had to go to the shop for £1 coins. hence the lapse of 20 mins of not having a valid ticket. (i then purcased another 3 £7 tickets to cover me for the remainder of my holiday also).

 

so, i look to others for help!

 

thanks all.

Edited September 19, 2015 by bluebox39

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG. I expect the forum guys will be along later.

 

They will know what to do. It's unlikely that this will cost you money, but I'll let them explain.

 

It looks as if you've already found the forum stikky with parking abbreviations?

 

My best, HB

[bluebox39]

Thanks HB,

 

yes, i've had a good poke around the stikky's so can cut the waffle down a fair bit!

 

i've also done a search on here for these jokers, it seems there fairly notorious down in the Perranporth area for harshly issuing tickets, so fingers crossed i can get it dealt with.

 

just a follow up from my OP,

 

i have got the PCN issued, also got the NTK, and the 4 x tickets issued by the machine for my stay, should anyone need to see them.

 

thanks again!

[ericsbrother]

Well they are wrong about the appeal process as the clock starts for the keeper the day they send out the NTK. That is the law so you appeal as the keeper and if they reject your appeal as being timed out they lose the right to claim keeper liability. They are hoping that you are just gullible enough to ay up rather than argue and cost them money.

Hang fire on your evidence, that will be wasted on them and needed later as there is case law that will sink them if they fancy their chances at court. In the meanwhile just appeal saying the driver paid the prescribed sum and had the correct proof of payment displayed so no breach occurred. If they reject your appeal by saying their charge notice was issued correctly then they should provide details of how to appeal to an independent adjudicator. If they fail to do this within 35 days of you sending your appeal to them then they forfeit the right to claim keeper liability. this iswhy you do not refer to yourself as anything but say "the driver" and "the keeper" at the relevant times.

[bluebox39]

Thanks for you reply,

 

so, am i correct in thinking i should just send in the templated appeal, claiming the prescribed amount was paid, even though at the time of the PCN being issued it wasnt? (There was a lapse of 20 minutes where the car was parked without a valid ticket, this is when i was collared)

 

im presuming this is just to get the details for the independant adjudicator?

 

thanks again!

[f16]

biuebox39

 

Head the letter "appeal" and word it as per ericsbrothers advice (post # 4)

 

Note : you word the letter as the "Keeper" and speak of the "driver" as the "third" person.

EG : The driver informs me that he purchased a ticket.

 

They will reject your first appeal but have to provide a POPLA code or IAS code when you get the chance of a second "appeal".

Send the letter "proof of posting"

That's when you hit them with the fact their machine would not accept £2 coins etc

Good Luck

[ericsbrother]

payment and the acceptance of that payment creates the contract. As they at the point of payment accepted your money how can a loss be caused to them? therefore they cannot claim a breach of contract and damages for that breach.

However, they are not interested in £2, they make their money by robbing the unwary and unknowing. No parking co makes any money from their front room activities and if they didnt reject your appeal they would have to admit their business model is pants. This has been pointed out in one of the famous cases involving parking lie.

[silverfox1961]

Hi

AS Parking are members of the IPC and as such, they play fast and loose with the rules. The Notice to Keeper states that the appeal process has expired. This is not the case. The appeal process was for the driver, not the keeper and as such you have 28 days from receipt of the NTK to appeal as the keeper.

 

This from the official guidance.

 

The registered keeper has 28 days after receiving a notice from the

landholder in which to provide the

driver’s details, pay the parking

charge, or appeal aga

inst the ticket.

If the registered keeper fails to do

any of these things the landholder ma

y begin proceedings to recover the

parking charge from the registered keeper (see Q1 FAQ)

 

The actual guidance.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/9155/guidance-unpaid-parking-charges.pdf

 

The IPC and the IAS are very strict to the consumer but not so much for their members. Gladstones Solicitors are the people that appoint the adjudicators but these lawyers are always anonymous so we have no idea whether they have the relevant experience to deal with parking matters.

[ericsbrother]

But when did Athena actually join the IPC? Before or after this event. I would be waiting to see what they claim and when you tell them that the ATA is not as advertised they may very well not want to play with you.

[armadillo71]

Athens not Athena eb!

 

http://www.theipc.info/aos-members

[silverfox1961]

But when did Athena actually join the IPC? Before or after this event. I would be waiting to see what they claim and when you tell them that the ATA is not as advertised they may very well not want to play with you.

 

Specsavers are quite cheap.

[ericsbrother]

sorry. Their web site says they are members of both the BPA and IPC but they are not on the BPA aos list so what does the signage say?

[bluebox39]

sorry. Their web site says they are members of both the BPA and IPC but they are not on the BPA aos list so what does the signage say?

 

Ah well, interesting one here. i did some homework on the exact same thing, and it turns out they WERE members of the BPA, this expired on the 28th August this year. According to the emails i recieved from the BPA, they have 6 months to remove all logos of theirs otherwise they will be penalised for it.

[bluebox39]

so, regarding my letter to them (which will be posted on a royal mail signed for service);

 

forgive my stupidity, but do i simply write something along the lines of

 

APPEAL.

 

To whom it may concern;

 

Re: PCN No. ....................

 

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on these main grounds:

 

a). The sum is disproportionate, does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term.

b) The sum is extravagant and unconscionable and cannot be justified.

c). There is no evidence that you have any interest in the land. I will complain to the landowner about your aggressive ticketing.

d) The driver informs me a ticket had been purchased

 

 

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn.

 

should you wish to persue this claim for money, the keeper will expect a reply from yourselves with a relevant code for the appeals process, for which the keeper will provide evidence contrary to the PCN you issued.

I (as the keeper) have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

Any good?

 

 

[ericsbrother]

so, for a ticket issued on the 11th aug the relevant independent adjudicator is POPLA and if that is on their signage then there is the argument that the signage is not compliant with the PoFA and nor will the appeals be. I wouldnt tell them this, it is far too complicated for them to consider, but save it for any serious claim they may wish to try their luck with.

So, for the moment the appeal should just state that the signage is confusing and therefore no offer of a contract could be properly considered.

Just get proof of posting from the post office, dont waste money on RD as the law says a letter is deemed delivered 2 days after being sent.

[bluebox39]

Thanks EB, I'll stick that on the bottom of the letter, along with amending it to state I request a popla code, and then I'll drop that in at the post office tomorrow.

 

Let's see how they wish to play this one. I hadn't thought about the whole signage thing either! Well pointed out!

[armadillo71]

Athens Security Services Limited*(Trading As AS Parking)

 

01/05/2015 http://www.as-parking.co.uk

 

http://www.theipc.info/aos-members

 

Athens joined the IPC AOS on the 1st May 2015.

[ericsbrother]

We would need to see the signage as there is still the argument that it is misleading or confusing so no contract made. Athens and IAS wont consider that but a court will so they wont be keen to go there but we dont want them to replace the signs and say that the new ones were in place at the time like some parking co's have done.

[bluebox39]

I've looked on google earth, but sadly the actual car park isnt on there. im hoping that someone i know that is visiting there this week can obtain some for me. in the meantime, im sending this letter off today to get the appeals process started while im gathering more evidence!

[armadillo71]

Can you post up the NTK please?

 

Are they claimig keeper liability under the POFA?

[bluebox39]

 

[armadillo71]

As I thought, they are not using the POFA and can only chase the driver for the charge. They clearly lie at the bottom of pg 1 about keeper liability.

 

Your appeal to them should just be that as RK you are not liable for the charge as the conditions of schedule 4 of the POFA 2012 have not been met.

State that they must address all further correspondence to the driver of the vehicle at the time of the event. State that you are under no obligation to give the name and address of the driver , and will not bedoing so.

State that you were not the driver at the time of the event.

[bluebox39]

As I thought, they are not using the POFA and can only chase the driver for the charge. They clearly lie at the bottom of pg 1 about keeper liability.

 

Your appeal to them should just be that as RK you are not liable for the charge as the conditions of schedule 4 of the POFA 2012 have not been met.

State that they must address all further correspondence to the driver of the vehicle at the time of the event. State that you are under no obligation to give the name and address of the driver , and will not bedoing so.

State that you were not the driver at the time of the event.

 

 

Heres what i've amended the letter to :-

 

my address

xxxx

xxxx

xxxx

xxxx

24th September 2015

 

 

 

To whom it may concern;

 

Re: pcn No. 22351 (issued to BP03 NBN)

 

 

As registered keeper of this vehicle I am not liable for the charge as the conditions of schedule 4 of the POFA 2012 have not been met.

All further correspondence is to be addressed to the driver of the vehicle at the time of the event. I am under no legal obligation to give the name and address of the driver, and will not be doing so.

 

 

Should you wish to pursue this claim, the keeper will expect a reply from yourselves with a relevant code for the appeals process, for which the keeper will provide evidence contrary to the PCN you issued.

 

Any letters or visits from debt collectors regarding this will be treated as harassment, and will incur legal proceedings from myself, as keeper of this vehicle.

 

I (as the keeper) have kept proof of submission of this appeal, and also will be obtaining proof of postage. Therefore I look forward to your reply.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Mr xxxx

Edited September 24, 2015 by honeybee13
OP's name removed.

[ericsbrother]

there are other holes in their claim, namely wrong ATA information, no service address for the company (PObox not good enough) 28 days and not 21 days for appeal or identification of driver.

So for the moment stick with the "not compliant with POFA and no keeper liability" and let them think about what they have done wrong. You can tell them in your IAS appeal if you wish.

[bluebox39]

Well, letter sent today, certificate of posting provided by post office.

 

I have managed to get hold of a sign in the car park today via a family member there... would you believe it... look at the bottom left of it... "BPA"... you fail!