Care and Tenants in Common

[Mother's Little Helper]

I hope this is in the right place to put this. I have been chatting to someone about a case where a father and daughter were Tenants in Common and the father now has to go into care.

 

 

First the daughter was told she would have to sell the house so the father's share could be used to pay for the care. The daughter did not believe this to be true and the Social Worker has now agreed it is not but has now said the council could move 3 tenants in to offset the care fees as it is 4 bedroom. The social worker said the tenants would be council approved but could be male, they could also be young and wanting to play music till all sorts of hours.

 

 

It seems as if the SW believes the share of the house owned by the father passes to the council and can be used how they choose.

 

 

I am concerned about this as my daughter and her partner - not married - are Tenants in Common and I wonder what this opens the up to if one of them should need care in the future.

 

 

Does anyone know the legal position of the council re the father's share?

 

 

Thank you.

[honeybee13]

That's an interesting question, MLH.

 

My understanding was that the council could take out a charging order on the father's share of the house, but maybe that's changed.

 

HB

[honeybee13]

I found this in the Guardian, which also mentions Age UK as a source of information.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/aug/28/tenancy-common-care-home-fee-solution

 

HB

[Mother's Little Helper]

Thanks Honeybee. The article is directed at spouses and if she were his wife the home would be ignored anyway but it does seem to hold out some hope. I agree with your first post - may opinion would be that all they could do is put a charge on his share but I don't know the legalities of the councils position. The SW also originally said the daughter would have to sell an move to something using her share. It seems very bullying but perhaps she is within her rights.

[Mr.P]

I doubt very much that a council could move tenants in to a private property. Like HB, I believe the most any council could do is to place a charging order on the property, but with the co-owner being a dependent, I suspect they would be sailing close to the wind in regards the legality of it.

 

Is there a free legal advice centre in the area ?

CAB is unlikely to be of much use in this situation, and the daughter really does need proper legal advice from a qualified expert. If there isn't a local legal advice centre, it would be worth seeking a solicitor with experience in this area.

[citizenB]

I wonder if this is something that should be brought to the attention of an MP or even the media !

[estellyn]

This sounds like rubbish, the council would not move people into a private residence without permission and agreement. My understanding is that if the co owner or tenant of the house is not a 'qualifying relative' - partner, over 60, under 18, incapacitated - then the council can pay for the care home fees under the deferred payment scheme with a charge on the property and recoup the fees at a later date when the property is sold. The council will also have discretion to disregard.

 

To the OP, where the other tenant/owner is a partner, the property is disregarded in full while they live in it.

[Mother's Little Helper]

Thanks for your comments. Estellyn, your last line set my mind at rest. Citizen B, I think a complaint should be made about this SW; it just sounds like bullying to me.

[gaznolan]

How do you think the council can put a charge on half a house ..... Half a house is worth nothing because you can't sell it .... what would be better is, with hindsight, whoever told the people to have the property as tenants in common should have set a will in place or a trust so that somebody else took control of their share in the event of death or incapacity

[goodatresearch]

I agree, but it would be a restriction not a charge but from what I have seen they usually disregard. Also, why does the dad have to go into care? If its for medical reasons then there should be no care bill at all.

 

The council cannot just consider half the house as theirs so they can move people in. Restrictions do not work that way. The social worker needs officially reporting by letter. He/she is just a bully overstepping her authority.

 

Plenty of solicitors deal with these type of issues, the daughter should seek legal advice.

 

This sounds like rubbish, the council would not move people into a private residence without permission and agreement. My understanding is that if the co owner or tenant of the house is not a 'qualifying relative' - partner, over 60, under 18, incapacitated - then the council can pay for the care home fees under the deferred payment scheme with a charge on the property and recoup the fees at a later date when the property is sold. The council will also have discretion to disregard.

 

To the OP, where the other tenant/owner is a partner, the property is disregarded in full while they live in it.

[estellyn]

I agree, but it would be a restriction not a charge but from what I have seen they usually disregard. Also, why does the dad have to go into care? If its for medical reasons then there should be no care bill at all.

 

The council cannot just consider half the house as theirs so they can move people in. Restrictions do not work that way. The social worker needs officially reporting by letter. He/she is just a bully overstepping her authority.

 

Plenty of solicitors deal with these type of issues, the daughter should seek legal advice.

 

If the person needs just basic personal care then it comes under social care and there is a financial assessment. If there are nursing needs and the person is deemed as needing nursing care (trained nurses), then the NHS foot the bill.

[goodatresearch]

True, but havent some families previously been able to claim fees back because they shouldn't have been charged in the 1st place?

 

 

 

 

 

If the person needs just basic personal care then it comes under social care and there is a financial assessment. If there are nursing needs and the person is deemed as needing nursing care (trained nurses), then the NHS foot the bill.

[Mr.P]

If the person needs just basic personal care then it comes under social care and there is a financial assessment. If there are nursing needs and the person is deemed as needing nursing care (trained nurses), then the NHS foot the bill.

 

It is quite a bit more complicated that that, and it can be a real fight to get Continuing Health Care funding even when there is a clear clinical need. There is a set of procedures that should be followed in all care assessments, but quite often some of the checks are omitted. A clinical needs assessment should be conducted before a financial assessment - This is one area that many social services make an error and provides a starting point for claiming care costs back.

 

Yes, some families have succeeded in reclaiming care costs where clinical care was needed, but it is a long, difficult, and expensive process.

 

http://caretobedifferent.co.uk/ is a mine of useful information on the subject.

[Mother's Little Helper]

I believe the father, who needs the care, has become violent but I don't know the ins and outs. It was the threat of moving three tenants into a privately owned property that I found so strange. Thank you for all your thoughts on this. What a minefield!

[estellyn]

It is quite a bit more complicated that that, and it can be a real fight to get Continuing Health Care funding even when there is a clear clinical need. There is a set of procedures that should be followed in all care assessments, but quite often some of the checks are omitted. A clinical needs assessment should be conducted before a financial assessment - This is one area that many social services make an error and provides a starting point for claiming care costs back.

 

Yes, some families have succeeded in reclaiming care costs where clinical care was needed, but it is a long, difficult, and expensive process.

 

http://caretobedifferent.co.uk/ is a mine of useful information on the subject.

 

Yes, I'm aware of this - I was stating what should happen, not what actually happens in practice as it didn't seem relevant to the OP question.

[estellyn]

I believe the father' date=' who needs the care, has become violent but I don't know the ins and outs. It was the threat of moving three tenants into a privately owned property that I found so strange. Thank you for all your thought on this. What a minefield![/quote']

 

Violence should not be residential care, anyway, it should come under nursing care (mental health) as it needs to be managed, monitored and medicated and residential homes aren't set up for dealing with this.

[Mother's Little Helper]

As I say, I don't know the ins and outs of that estellyn, I was more concerned with the idea that they could recover the costs by moving three tenants into a four bedroomed house of which he owns half.

[citizenB]

As I say' date=' I don't know the ins and outs of that estellyn, I was more concerned with the idea that they could recover the costs by moving three tenants into a four bedroomed house of which he owns half.[/quote']

 

 

I really don't see that happening and think the Social Worker needs taking out of the system.