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    • Hi I appealed online on 28/12/19. I have attached my submission as a further PDF   Thanks
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    • Thanks EB, I will catchup on the mentioned thread as I had used it before the hearing.   I went for hearing. Rep approached mentioning settlement, talking about them having a strong case to which I pointed out their bundle which they were going through that it says Excel here so aren't you here for the wrong company.   They mentioned sister companies, I mentioned companies house and then I said let's leave it to the judge they went away from me. The rep went into a room presumably to call their firm Elms Legal I think probably for advice.   We ended up being the last hearing before lunch, as the Usher called out our names and said the judge will call you in shortly. The rep came over saying something like I'm surprised you're going in without submitting a WS!   I said it has been served they said well I haven't seen it, when was it sent, do you have copies as I could get the Usher to copy, I said I may,  rep - you either do or you don't Take care of yourself.I said well we will have to put this in front of the judge now.   Inside the rep said to the judge about my WS not being served and they asked me on multiple occasions for the WS I said 5 minutes before coming in is not multiple occasions. The judge said they had my WS along with an index of papers I had sent in that they have been looking at.   The rep started with their page contract and terms and conditions picture in their bundle saying they have a valid contract and that in the Tariff /T&C picture it mentioned about entering into a contract with VCS.   The judge asked me what I made of that I argued where is the contract giving them, a 3rd party, authority from Excel to issue proceedings in their own rights? The judge said to the rep, Defendant not accepting this so we are not getting anywhere rep raised WS issue again saying they asked on multiple occasions, again I repeated what 5 minutes before coming in. I said I had Cert of Posting.   The rep mentioned about being given a few minutes to read it and I said I had a copy but the judge was saying it's near lunch and it will take too much time even though the rep said there is still 35 minutes left.   I said the WS was served see COP but the judge said they may have lost it etc so to send it again. I said the rep could have a copy now but the rep was like I couldn't take pictures of it and send back to my client as they only get things from them via email.   I said you could post it but the judge said the rep is saying they can't use post for whatever reason so if I could send it again. Case adjourned.   The rep asked about costs and judge said reserved and I asked about my loss of earnings and that I would have to get leave booked again. Reserved seemed to be the answer but the judge was apologising about being the last morning hearing and said he would make sure we were first next time and the rep asked for an hour instead of 45 minutes so judge asked me and I said ok.   The rep asked about the reason for adjourning to give to their client as they would have had to pay them to attend. Outside at the ushers desk the rep had spoken to the Usher to make a copy from mine (didn't accept it Infront of the judge) and also asked to see the COP and I obliged saying I deem this served now but the rep said you have an order/instruction from the judge to send to VCS. I regret giving them a copy thinking I should have said you will have it once I send it again to VCS. Whilst inside, the judge said as the hearing never started it wouldn't be infront of him again and also the rep said it would probably be someone else as she also wasn't the person named in their WS. As per POFA my understanding is one cannot be made to pay costs more than in the NTK. As it will now be a 2nd hearing, 2 days off work for me and 2 representations for them, will there be double AL for me to claim if I win or double expenses if they win?   There was supposed to  be 2 cases heard together but I only had WS for this one am I supposed to have asked for another WS? Will they be claiming the fee/expenses for both cases with one hearing yet I could only claim for the 2 days AL?   What do you make of what happened at the hearing from their rep, maybe they realised it won't be straightforward especially when it was a judge they were not aware of perhaps they conferred with their team about ways to handle aswell as ways to escape? Thanks      
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Hi All,

 

I had applied for TE7/TE9 application recently for out of time witness statement towards a PCN, which got rejected. I intend to file N244 for a review of the decision and needed advice in relation to it, which will be much appreciated.

 

Overall issue-

-> 2 PCN from London Borough of Redbridge with contravention date 10th and 12th Feb 2015.

-> As per claimant witness statement for both the PCN

- NTO 18th FEb 2015

- CC on 24th Mar 2015

- OR/WS on 15th April 2015

- WoC on 28th May 2015

- SD out of time on 19th Aug (1 day before it I got to know about it from enforcement agency Confero and applied for TE7/9)

-> Moved to new house on 14th Feb and applied for DVLA address change . DVLA updated it on 25th Feb 2015.

 

Detail Event

 

I am starting with the order of events in chronological order best to my recollection towards it before I present my queries. .

 

 

18th August, 2015

1. I received two letters from ‘Confero Collection’ heading Notice of Enforcement in the evening.

Letter 1

Issue Date – 13 August,2015

Payment Due Date - 25th August 2015

Money Owing to – London Borough of Redbridge(LBR)

Amount – Debt - £ 172 ,Compliance Stage Fee - £75 = Total £247

Letter 2

Issue Date – 13 August,2015

Payment Due Date - 25th August 2015

Money Owing to – London Borough of Redbridge(LBR)

Amount – Debt - £ 172, Compliance Stage Fee - £75 = Total £247

 

19th August, 2015

2. I called up Confero in the morning asking what the notice is about. The Lady on the phone said it’s towards the two PCN for which I owe debt to LBR and helped me to view the CCTV image of the same from the Redbridge website. Before I could explain or contest on it, she told me I have to call up LBR council in regards to it.

 

3. After speaking to Confero I tried calling to LBR and manage to get the right person around lunch time. I mentioned the two PCN no# and tried to explain the situation towards it. The person explained he cannot do anything or help me out as the matter is in the county court and I have to get in touch with TEC to get it off from court proceedings before they can here any of my contestation and suggested that I should do it right away.

 

4. Then after having lunch I tried calling TEC and after repeated attempt manage to get somebody over phone. I explained the situation and gave the two PCN no# and she said I have to file TE7/TE9 (which she emailed me later after the call )separately for each PCN and email it back to them .Once they receive the correct application, and if its before1600 hrs, then it will be processed and notify LBR the same day. After which I will have to wait for the decision.

 

[My understanding after the call was that was once they receive the correct application it will be off court proceeding and decision will be on the PCN. So I intended to call LBR next day to talk on the PCN and explain my situation before they make the decision.]

 

5. After the above call I got the TE7/TE9 form from TEC, which I filled up correctly for both PCN.

In TE9 My declaration was - I did not receive the Notice to Owner /Penalty Charge Notice

For TE7 I didn’t paid much thought on reason when I was filling it and gave below explanation, which at that time was the reason for filing it. I was in rush to apply the application so that they receive it before 1600 to get the whole thing off from the Bailiff’s involvement.

 

“I did not receive any communication on this until 18th August 2015 (from enforcement agent). I need additional time so that I can discuss this with Redbridge Council.”

 

[Which I regretted later for not providing full details]

 

20th August, 2015

 

6. I called up LBR in the late morning to check if they have received any communication from TEC and then explain the situation on the two PCN itself. The Lady over the phone confirmed receiving the fax from TEC on TE7/TE9 for both the PCN. But said she cannot do anything towards the PCN and I have to wait till LBR makes a decision on the application that I filed with TEC. Then I told her that I am confused as I thought whole thing I did was to discuss about the PCN itself with LBR and any further explanation went in vain. Towards the end of the call she said she will be informing the Enforcement Agency (Confero) to hold the enforcement action till further notice from LBR, when I asked about it.

 

 

4th September, 2015

 

7. I received two letters from LBR towards two TEC applications that I filed in regard to two PCN. Both the letter explained the council wishes to oppose the Out of time Statutory Declaration

 

The letter also included document heading “Witness Statement of Claimant: London Borough Redbridge”.

 

Letter 1 (1st PCN)

Dated – 26 August, 2015

Contravention Date – 12th February 2015 – PCN issued from CCTV

18th Feb 2015 – PCN was sent to respondent by 1st class post. No representation or payment received.

24th Mar 2015 – Charge Certificate was sent to respondent by 1st class post. No representation or payment received.

15th April 2015 – Order Recovery/witness statement Notice was sent to respondent by 1st class post. No representation or payment received.

28th May 2015 – Warrant of Control was issued to Enforcement Agent

19th August 2015 – a faxed copy of respondents out of time Statutory Declaration received from TEC.

The letter included the details of what they advised me over the phone and the reason to decline it is as below:-

 

“The statutory declaration was made from different address than to the address PCN was issued and respondent has given no indication in the statement that they have moved or to confirm they have their mail redirected. Therefore respondent didn’t take adequate measure to notify DVLA or have their mail redirected. “

 

Letter 2 (2nd PCN)

 

This is exactly same as above except the contravention date – 10th Feb 2015

 

 

 

[i moved to new address on 14th February 2015 evening and applied for address change to DVLA on next working for both Driving license and Vehicle logbook. The new logbook that I received later has updated entry as of 25th February 2015. So DVLA should have the new address from 25th February 2015.

 

Regarding mail redirection, I did not do it as I had applied and got the address changed for bank a/c, utility…etc over phone and wasn’t expecting any letter. ]

 

7th September, 2015

 

10. I called up LBR in regards to the letter received above on 4th September 2015 and explained the DVLA address change dates to see if they will listen to me and change their decision before they notify TEC of their decision . It seemed it was the same lady from LBR I spoke on 20th August 2015 but was disappointed to find her persistence on the fact that it’s my mistake that I had not set up the mail redirection and didn’t listen to any of my explanation . She confirmed towards the end of the call that they are going to decline it and I cannot do anything to change their decision.

 

 

10th September, 2015

 

11. I received two letters from TEC in regards to my TE7/9 applications.

The letter is dated 7 September 2015, pretty much with same standard response format that I see here in the forum, that’s it’s refused and I have 14 days to file a review through N244.

 

I needed some advice on the mail redirection part , can that be viewed by district judge as negative aspect in reconsidering the appeal .Does it mean it can be used for legal argument.

 

:Thanks

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If you have 2 PCN's then you have to submit a separate N244 for each one which obviously doubles the cost.


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90 percent of the account above is not relevant to the situation. The TE7/TE9 contests the bailiff warrant, and it would be on the grounds that you did not receive prior correspondence, because you moved house between the PCN and the NTO.

 

That's all you need to say - and on the forms, they would need you to tell them that, with the dates and preferably some evidence. There's no way they would accept it on the basis that "I need additional time so that I can discuss this with Redbridge Council".

 

That said, there is a serious question mark over the matter of whether the warrant can be enforced, and I don't think it can since you have moved.

 

I also think you are entitled to file another TE7/TE9 - which might be a better option than the N244 (and free!).

 

You actually have a strong hand, if you can prove the date of the move. (Forget the mail redirection bit, and the DVLA bit etc - it's not important.)

 

There's a resident expert on the forum on these matters, and she's usually to be found over on the bailiff section, so...

 

MODS: please could you move this thread over to Bailiffs.

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Thanks for the reply, what is the process of filing another TE7/TE9 .Should I call up TEC ? and on what ground should I file it again.

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Another update I called up TEC about the deadline . The lady over the phone said -

 

1. She has sent two N244 form for the two PCNs and 14 weekdays deadline start date is from today ,as per her , the moment I acknowledge the receipt of the forms over email.

 

2. Two N244 application will be handled independently even if I link it , which could mean reviewed by different judge and different outcome.

Even though the contravention is same ,parking fine on same location, and all notice dates were also same.

 

3. She said application itself should not take too much time as I can email them the filled application and pay it over phone . To which I said I am arranging some documentation as evidence to my appeal from the council on move date which could take couple of days . She maintained they don't need evidence as such but its up to me to do that.

 

4. About 50 GBP refund in case of success the response was vague and tried to confirm if its non refundable . There was no straight answer and she said its district judge change and is not going to TEC pocket. So, I am assuming its non refundable.

 

I am planning to send the evidence anyway along with application, last council bill of previous address to show move date and DVLA logbook for address change date.

 

The new deadline is a bit of relieve . I am taking her word on it , bit reluctant though.

 

what is your view on this.

 

:Thanks

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MODS - please move this to the bailiff forum.

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Done


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The SabreSheep, All information is offered on good faith and based on mine and others experiences. I am not a qualified legal professional and you should always seek legal advice if you are unsure of your position.

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Jamberson, thank you for moving this query to the bailiff forum.

 

There is a LOT to read here so I will do my best to answer this evening if possible. Unfortunately, my much loved MacBook has finally died and for evening use, I am having to get used to an iPad to post (so please excuse any mistakes).

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Bali,

I have read through your very detailed posts and what is clear is that you had excellent grounds for filing Out of Time witness statements and if the forms been correctly completed I have no doubt that your applications would have been accepted. Unfortunatley, as I think you now realise, you had not completed the forms correctly and had not provided a REASON as to why you had not received any prior statutory notices.

 

The correct procedure now is for you to complete two N244 Applications but it is vitally important that this is properly completed and evidence provided. If you wish, I can provide draft wording for the N244. Unfortunately, I have a meeting in London tomorrow so I will be unable to get the draft ready until early evening. I hope that this is ok.

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Thanks for your reply and patience in reading it . I have been following this on pepipoo forum also ( forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=101427&hl= ) and have received some good feedback in preparing my N244 response. I will appreciate if I can have some more feedback on it.

 

Below is the exact witness statement of defendant that I am planning to send for one of the PCN ,please let me know if you see any issue and thanks again for your help and patience.

 

 

Date 21/09/2015

Notice Number – XXXXX

Vehicle Registration Number – XXXXX

 

 

Witness Statement of

XXXXXX

 

I, XXXXX, resident of XXXXX state:

 

1. I am providing existing and additional facts and evidence to best of my knowledge; documents listed out in annexure at the end ; and from the letter received by me on 4th September 2015 as Witness statement of Claimant from London Borough of Redbridge.

 

2. I had moved to new address aforesaid on 14th Feb 2015.

 

3. I had applied to DVLA for address change of my Driving License and Vehicle Logbook (V5C) on 16th Feb 2015(next working day after day of move) as per the DVLA procedure and the new address was recorded on 25th Feb 2015 by DVLA.

 

4. I have not received any of the letters below as per witness statement of claimant ,as they were all apparently sent to out of date address :-

a. Penalty Charge Notice sent on 18th Feb 2015

b. Charge Certificate sent on 24th Mar 2015

c. Order Recover/Witness statement Notice sent on 15th April 2015

 

5. First correspondence that I received in this regard was from enforcement agency CONFERO Collections Ltd on the evening of 18th August 2015 .I have handled the matter promptly since then as per the procedure to best of my knowledge through out the point of time.

 

6. In reference to additional reason cited for refusal in the ,Witness statement of Claimant from London Borough of Redbridge, letter I was not able to setup mail redirection for below reason :-

a. The original agreed house move date with Property Agency was 23rd Feb 2015 based on my notice serve date and the agency added a conditional clause that I can leave early if they find a new tenant before the above agreed date, based on my request of preference.

 

b. I was communicated over phone couple of days before 13th Feb 2015 that I can leave by 13th Feb 2015. I did not have sufficient lead time at that time to setup a redirection as required by Royal Mail. Nevertheless, I informally had requested to the Property Agency to keep any of my mail in case they receive it, which I believe now was overlooked.

 

7. To conclude , I moved to new address on 14th Feb 2015 and applied to DVLA for address change on 16th Feb 2015 .The PCN was not issued and posted until 18th Feb 2015 .It was posted to the previous address as the update to the Registered Keeper address was apparently not yet processed by the DVLA. If the PCN was delivered in mail, I had already moved out of previous address. So, I believe I have been deprived of my right to appeal the matter to the independent adjudicator.

 

 

 

Annexure

 

1. Scan copy of V5C document

2. Electronic Copy of Council Tax Bill of London Borough of Havering

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Peppipo are an excellent motoring forum and the above draft is not too bad (although a lot of the information is really not necessary). As I said last night I am happy to provide a draft for you but I am currently on my way to London to meetings and will deal with this when I return later.

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Thanks again for your reply, please also provide the N244 draft that you mentioned earlier .Can you also please let me know which information is unnecessary.

 

Also the information I have prepared for N244 draft(especially point 3 & 6 in the draft) is based on below understanding

 

I am assuming the judge will read my appeal under the context of the Claimant's Witness Statement(LBR)(Just to double check ,which am not submitting with my appeal) which he will have access to it somehow . A copy of my appeal will also be sent to LBR and judge will seek LBRs response before giving decision.

And my appeal wont be considered on its own based just on the appeal evidence statement.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

So with above assumption I have below statement from claimant (LBR)(Witness Statement of Claimant: London Borough Redbridge received on 4th Sep 2015 ) in exact wording explaining the reason of refusal.

 

"....We would like to take this opportunity to advise the Respondent has filed the statutory declaration out of time and statutory declaration under a different address (New Address ) which differs from the address given below .The Respondent has given no indication in their witness statement that they have moved address or to confirm they had their mail redirected. Therefore we don not believe the respondent took adequate measure to notify the DVLA of the address change or have their mail redirected...

(Old Address)..."

 

Please note the underlined statement from the claimant LBR. Don't I have to counter it in my appeal .

 

Now again if judge is going to decide entirely based on my appeal statement , then I guess I don't have to .

 

Overall idea am trying is to go with safer option and also don't want to add unnecessary things to confuse .

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Tomtubby (or should I call you Bailiff Advice these days??) what would happen if the OP just accepted that the TE7 was rejected, didn't file an N244 but did file a new TE7/9 with the pertinent info included? Would it be processed and accepted, or does something have to happen before it can be filed?

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Tomtubby (or should I call you Bailiff Advice these days??) what would happen if the OP just accepted that the TE7 was rejected, didn't file an N244 but did file a new TE7/9 with the pertinent info included? Would it be processed and accepted, or does something have to happen before it can be filed?

 

You can call me whatever you like Jamberson. I have come across people submitting a 2nd OoT but the TEC computer gremlins throw the application out and if you think about it logically, people could simply keep submitting an Out of Time in order to get the warrant put on hold.

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That's true. I think there's rule about the number of times you can file one (something ridiculous like nine), but that's if you have them accepted and reverted to NTO, but then do nothing and go through the whole cycle back to warrant stage each time.

 

Anyway, you answered the question - N244 or nothing, it seems.

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