RAF drone strke in Syria on 2 UK citizens

[Conniff]

I've said this so many times, they will not give that type of information as it gives away their sources and puts lives and intelligence at risk.

 

So once again, what would you do ??

 

Why will the Government not reveal the LEGAL ADVICE it received. (This can be released after removing sensitive issues)

 

No it can't, even saying one wrong word can tell them where they got their information from.

[SabreSheep]

I've said this so many times, they will not give that type of information as it gives away their sources and puts lives and intelligence at risk.

 

So once again, what would you do ??

 

 

 

 

 

No it can't, even saying one wrong word can tell them where they got their information from.

 

 

"I already said, with no evidence of an Immediate threat to this country, I would not do anything. I also said that by not having an alternative strategy does not validate an unlawful and illegal one."

[Conniff]

And there it is, you were not privy to what was known, those in the department were and took the action deemed necessary.

 

Would you be saying allthis if it was Corbyn in power ?

 

What you are saying about cobra would have warned them and they would have brought forward their act of terrorism or scarpered to an unknown location.

 

There have been a few cobra meets of late, how do we know that it wasn't discussed at one of those.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Conniff

[SabreSheep]

Nope, but they failed to follow international law, they failed to inform the relevant Bodies immediately, instead waited 2 weeks.

 

No COBRA meeting was called.

 

No Legal advice is being produced. (Remember the legal advice will not have to include sensitive details. It only has to make reference to "Intel received"

 

"Article 51 of the UN charter was not complied with"

 

"It is contrary to international law to mount an armed attack on another sovereign state. Point 6 of the 1970 declaration on principles of international law states: “No state or group of states has the right to intervene, directly or indirectly, for any reason whatever, in the internal or external affairs of any other state.” "

 

 

The fact that these drone strikes were prepared over "Months" removed the "Immediate threat"

 

 

We cannot cry as other people commit acts of aggression against common decency and international law if we ourselves are not willing to follow the international rules of law.

We may as well rip up international law right now and return to our caves.

 

LAW keeps us from being the barbarians we are fighting.

 

I would not want to be one of them.

 

I for one will not support a potential WAR CRIME because of the idea that the end justifies the means.

 

I do not really have anything else to add to this discussion, feel free to have the closing remarks.

[Conniff]

I'm sorry SabreSheep but you are saying this wasn't and that wasn't but you don't know, you are saying all these things from way outside and with no knowledge what was or wasn't done, you are just guessing and deciding that is how it must have happened.

 

No Cobra meeting was called under that name, but there was one in July about about Calais migrants how do you know that it wasn't used to discuss this very same action.

[estellyn]

And I fully respect our views, and probably upbringing, are very different. If we were all the same life would be very boring.

 

True, the world needs difference and diversity.

[trebormoinet]

I guess if it is acceptable now to kill terrorists in other countries remotely then we all had better watch the skies as the UK shelters many terrorists from other parts of the world that are in conflict with countries we are not aligned to.

 

This action has set a precedent and soon the sky's will be full of killing machines hunting down and destroying people without having to justify it to the population, citing sensitive information as a defence.

 

The cost of dispatching a single terrorist runs into millions of pounds using this technology, the money would be better spent on improving border control and home security and tackle real threats not perceived.

 

These animals would have met the end regardless of the drones but what about the animals that were supposedly going to carry out the threat, why haven't they been dispatched because they are the ones going to be coming for us, not those 2 who were the supposed instigators.

 

Also since when has voting a political party into power given a carte blanch to carry out war crimes in our name.

[think about it]

There's a bit of nostalgia in all of this, governments have ALWAYS carried out acts of war in our name, even to the extent of breaking arbitrary laws.

 

WW2 was as dirty as can be imagined, the Falklands, Iraq, Afghanistan et al - the first casualty is innocence.

 

I'm a keen amateur drone (quadcopter/hexacopter) pilot, we're already buzzing around in serious numbers, it's just a case of the govt. weaponising them effectively. As you can probably tell, I've no problem with the perpetrators of these acts of terror getting what's coming anywhere we choose. It's not like the 80's where at least the IRA would have the courtesy of warning people first before the detonated their bombs.

 

I'm wary of going so far as to call these people animals, that dehumanisation led the way to the holocaust where people were seen as untermensch, nah - these are murderous, genocidal idiots who deserve what's coming in any form wherever they stand.

[Conniff]

And one day one (or more) of the drones you use will get into the hands of a terrorist and no one will be able to stop them attaching something to that.

[think about it]

And one day one (or more) of the drones you use will get into the hands of a terrorist and no one will be able to stop them attaching something to that.

 

To be fair, the payload restrictions are such that you'd struggle to carry anything of consequence. There are far more effective ways of delivering death and destruction than a few hundred pounds worth of hobbyist drone. If I were so inclined, I'd use a good old fashioned RC plane, multicopters just seem to be the media's latest obsession.

 

They're also prodigeously noisy, if you've not seen/heard one in flight then imagine 4/6/8 food processors going at full tilt and you're almost there. There's nothing subtle about them and you could lob a coat at one and floor it.

[SabreSheep]

Man saves Sellafield from nuclear holocast using his helmet - Can see the headlines now

[think about it]

Man saves Sellafield from nuclear holocast using his helmet - Can see the headlines now

 

Ha ha, my mind is in the gutter...

 

Anyway, yeah - to carry anything 'worth' carrying then you're into massively expensive and complex multicopters and in all honesty even then a poorly aimed shotgun shell would drop it. Every part of them is 'flight critical' so if one part fails, it's all going down unless you've built in some serious redundancy at that's where you eat into payload, flight time and complexity. You're honestly better putting whatever it is you want to deliver in a box and sending it via Yodel...

[trebormoinet]

I'm wary of going so far as to call these people animals, that dehumanisation led the way to the holocaust where people were seen as untermensch, nah - these are murderous, genocidal idiots who deserve what's coming in any form wherever they stand.

 

I am quite comfortable calling these people animals.

 

In my opinion to deserve the moniker of being called a human, they need to show compassion and a conscience, traits which separate us from the animal kingdom and something clearly lacking in this evil movement.

 

They have chosen to dehumanise themselves by the actions they take, the same cannot be said of the Jews.

 

And yes this country has committed war crimes in the past but that does not excuse the need to commit them in the future.

 

The action Cameron took only drags us down to their level, we are quite capable and able to defend these shores without resorting to these tactics, more people have died putting their pants on in the morning than have died at the hands of terrorists in this country, so either we are already doing an excellent job of keeping this country safe else the threat we are told about is just propaganda in order to erode our civil liberties.

[SabreSheep]

Tory MP questions the legality of drone strikes

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/16/drone-strikes-britons-syria-tory-mp-casts-doubt-justification

[Guest]

and a timely statement by the security boss

[tobyjugg2]

and a timely statement by the security boss

 

Implying THEM abiding by the law will put us at risk, and that the LAWS should be changed to let them do anything they want, but saying FA really.

[Conniff]

First off no one has any idea of what they are looking at now. All emails aren't read, and even if they were, there is only one thing that interests them and it's not what your kinky sexual habits might be.

 

Get in there and take all the information by whatever means and from wherever it is required.

[citizenB]

First off no one has any idea of what they are looking at now. All emails aren't read, and even if they were, there is only one thing that interests them and it's not what your kinky sexual habits might be.

 

Get in there and take all the information by whatever means and from wherever it is required.

 

Don't they have certain search parameters that narrows things down or alerts them when used ?

[tobyjugg2]

I'm sorry SabreSheep but you are saying this wasn't and that wasn't but you don't know, you are saying all these things from way outside and with no knowledge what was or wasn't done, you are just guessing and deciding that is how it must have happened.

 

Neither do you, and so are you Conniff.

Your argument is that the Tory government is right no matter what.

Well, they should NOT be above the law whatever your and their rhetoric.

 

 

The whole issue is that people were assassinated without any stated due process of law.

 

If due process was legally followed, there is no reason to keep now to keep it secret - unless the government is lying..

 

So its way past time for any government claiming it abides by international law to prove that it wasn't an illegal murder.

[Conniff]

You really aren't seeing the picture or more likely, don't want to.

 

If you share a secret with a friend and that secret gets out, you know where it came from, it could have only come from one place. That's how intelligence gathering happens. If you give information on why and how, you can identify your sources which will result in a couple of things, you will lose your source and that source will probably be killed.

In the case of isis beheaded and a gloating nah nah nah video put on line.

[tobyjugg2]

You really aren't seeing the picture or more likely, don't want to.

 

I think, and would hope, that there will be few who think that of me Conniff.

You on the other hand ....

[Conniff]

I think, and would hope, that there will be few who think that of me Conniff.

You on the other hand ....

 

I can't for the life of me understand why you continually appear to condone by not condemning what ISIS id doing.

[obiter dictum]

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY." --Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

[tobyjugg2]

I can't for the life of me understand why you continually appear to condone by not condemning what ISIS id doing.

 

Your suggestion that I condone ISIS actions is offensive and without justification, and sadly not an unusual response from you.

 

Your issue seems to be that I don't condone Tory abuses of law and decency either.

[tobyjugg2]

and meanwhile, the first Syrian/Russian air strikes kill 38 IS soldiers in Syria, probably beating the effective results of the last 6 months efforts of the 60 nation US coalition in 1 day.

 

http://tribune.com.pk/story/961416/syrian-regime-air-strikes-kill-38-islamic-state-fighters-monitor/

 

Amazing how they can find them when the yanks apparently can't.

 

The Americans of course continue to claim that others killing ISIS soldiers will extend the conflict ....

That belief is presumably why the yanks seem to be doing it so ineffectively ...

 

Bet the yanks are now crapping themselves that the Kurds might join the Syrian/Russian coalition and wipe out ISIS in Syria in a couple of months.