Electronic fault found a year after purchase, but was there from day one.

[Terrace]

I always seem to have problems recounting the law when it comes to faulty returns, usually I just give up and buy something new when it breaks if it's cheap enough because when you talk to someone at the shop you bought it from they often don't know the law themselves. This time though the thing I bought was expensive at £284.99 plus £274.99

 

The shorter explanation is I bought two graphics cards over a year ago 21/02/2014 and 01/03/2014 only to find out very recently there is a manufactured fault on the graphics cards when you use three monitors which is something they advertise on the box that they can do. Can I get my money back as its a manufactured fault from day one of sale? I've tried offering them a deal with exchanging the refund money towards two new graphics card and supplementing the difference in cost with my own money, but so far they have just blamed the manufacturer and offered a replace / repair which won't help.

 

The longer version of the same story is I bought two graphics cards for my computer they were identical and on the same day (but one of them was too long for the case so we were able to quickly exchange one for another) these graphics cards advertise on the internet, on the box and in the instruction manual they can be used together, they refer to this as “Crossfire” and also they advertise in the same way that they can run multiple monitors in something they refer to as “Eyefinity” and you can do any combination of these two technologies having up to four graphics cards and up to six monitors. E.G. you could have one graphics card powering six monitors or four graphics cards powering one monitor and anything in-between.

 

In actuality there is a huge fault with the way the graphics cards are manufactured and all of R9 290 Graphics Cards will have errors when running two of them with three monitors. I'll provide some google links with the keywords to search for at the end. But I've had the two graphics cards just running one monitor for just over a year and now I've decided to add two more monitors so now I can see the fault that I couldn't before.

 

I haven't told them exactly what I will accept in case they offer me the best offer which would be a full refund of course, but I'm pretty reasonable I'd accept an exchange for two different working graphics cards plus the money difference in cost, or even a little less refund money back for the usage I've had out of the graphics cards up until this point.

 

But where do I stand with the actual law, surely it's not my fault that there was a hidden day one problem and I should get a pretty decent amount of money back and like I said I tried to sweeten the deal for the store as as I've offered to invest all the money I get back straight back into buying from them again.

 

You may notice some of these topics on google say "solved" on them but there is no legitimate solution other than replacing the graphics cards with other or turning off the features that they say it can do and is then not as described.

 

 

"R9 290 crossfire audio"

"R9 290 crossfire DPC latency issue"

[dx100uk]

If its a known fault ack'd by the manufacturing company in writing

 

Then you are entitled to a replacement under soga

 

DX

[Terrace]

If its a known fault ack'd by the manufacturing company in writing

 

Then you are entitled to a replacement under soga

 

DX

 

It's more of a known fault on the internet rather than a acknowledged by the manufacturer who is AMD (Advance Micro Devices)

 

Anyone trying to contact AMD simply gets told they have received the report of the fault and then no further resolution comes from it. People have been reporting this fault since September the 25th 2013 it seems with nothing to show for it. And I've only just become aware of it since I plugged in three monitors in order to use an advertised feature

 

The only problem with a replacement is that the replacement will also have the fault. That particular graphics card is built with the fault and cannot even do what is advertised on it's own box, instruction booklet and web page.

 

I'd rather receive anything other than a replacement as Advance Micro Devices has since made newer graphics cards and no longer cares about problems with their older models, and I'd be going around in circles replacing them! The only other company that makes graphics cards now is called Nvidia and I'd really only accept Nvidia Graphics cards, A refund or Nvidia Graphics cards with a discount from store credit.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Terrace

[dx100uk]

A replacement does not mean the same card but one that works.

 

However as. This is not a hands up fault you'll be at the mercy and choice of the retailer

 

Dx

[Terrace]

A replacement does not mean the same card but one that works.

 

However as. This is not a hands up fault you'll be at the mercy and choice of the retailer

 

Dx

 

Surely I can't be in a bad situation just because AMD wouldn't ever admit to being at fault?! I mean the problem can be proven and replicated endlessly 100% of the time by just plugging the cards into a computer and attaching three monitors.

[CrappoMan]

If the item is not fit for purpose, i.e: it doesn't work as advertised on the box, then you are within your rights to demand a refund.

 

It doesn't have to be a known fault acknowledged by AMD in writing, as long as you can demonstrate the fault instore.

 

The retailer may want to offer a replacement, but you don't have to accept a replacement for a faulty item, you can demand a refund.

[dx100uk]

Sadly the consumer has no such rights outside of poss 14 days

& certainly not after 12 mths if the manu does not acknowledge there is an issue in writing

 

It will be the choice of the retailer concerned

 

A diff model that meets everyone's needs might be the best option

 

Dx

[CrappoMan]

Sadly the consumer has no such rights outside of poss 14 days

& certainly not after 12 mths if the manu does not acknowledge there is an issue in writing

 

Show me where it says 14 days or even 12 months. I can only find reference to "reasonable time", which can be up to 6 years.

 

After 6 months it may be up to the purchaser to show the fault existed when purchased. The sale could be classed as a "sale by description", where the purchaser has only bought the item because of the description on the box and wouldn't have purchased if the information on the box was correct.

 

There may be some 'recission' cost involved, but I didn't say a FULL refund.

[dx100uk]

Thank you

Youve underlined what i was saying quite nicely...

 

here's nothing in soga that's says a retailer must do anything.......

 

Refund replace repair..its their choice.

 

Under contract law you have 14 days BTW and the new rules that are being published

 

Dx

[BankFodder]

Thank you

Youve underlined what i was saying quite nicely...

 

here's nothing in soga that's says a retailer must do anything.......

 

Refund replace repair..its their choice.

 

Under contract law you have 14 days BTW and the new rules that are being published

 

Dx

Who sold it to you?

[CrappoMan]

I've underlined nothing, quite the opposite.

 

The choice of repair, replace or refund is down to the buyer not the seller, see S48A(2). Part (a) for repair/replace. Part (b) to rescind the contract for a refund.

 

S48B(3) deals with impossible replacements. The section states that "The buyer must not require the seller to repair or, as the case may be, replace the goods if that remedy is...impossible".

Then S48C takes that in to account to enable the buyer to rescind the contract.

 

I would argue that replacement is impossible because any replacement would have exactly the same defect and so would not remedy the cause of the complaint, namely the incorrect description and lack of functionality of the item.

 

14 days ? Under distance selling or credit regs maybe, not under SOGA.

[Conniff]

I don't see refund mentioned in that section. After more than a few weeks, the buyer will have been deemed to have accepted the goods and the remedy of repair or replace or refund is up to the seller.

[CrappoMan]

I never said it used the word refund. I said 'rescind' and SOGA uses 'rescind', which means the same as refund.

I only used the word 'refund' in reference to dx's post and in "Part (b) to rescind the contract for a refund.".

 

The choice is clearly laid out in S48A(2), and is the BUYERS.

 

The 'accepted the goods after a few weeks' is for non faulty goods, otherwise how does that stack up with the 6 month rule for proving pre-exisiting faults.

 

Again, show me where it states what you are saying.

[fkofilee]

Who sold it to you Terrace... ?

[Terrace]

Who sold it to you?

 

and

Who sold it to you Terrace... ?

 

They are called Overclockers UK, i'd provide a link but the forums say I cannot do that until ten posts have been made, they should be the first result in a google search though.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Terrace

[dx100uk]

good lot actually

I've always bought my pc stuff from them and never had any issues

 

 

even sent faulty stuff back 2.5yrs old and its been changed with no bother.

 

 

let me see if I've got a contact.

 

 

did have.

 

 

dx

[fkofilee]

OC are awesome!

 

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[dx100uk]

resit to post 1

I suspect you've yet to contact them?

 

I cant see you having any issue getting it sorted with overclockers.

 

they will be well aware of the issues of what you are trying to do.

 

and the issues with those cards.

 

 

dx

[fkofilee]

resit to post 1

I suspect you've yet to contact them?

 

I cant see you having any issue getting it sorted with overclockers.

 

they will be well aware of the issues of what you are trying to do.

 

and the issues with those cards.

 

 

dx

 

I most certainly agree with DX, I use PC Specialist and OverClockers... They are top notch but if you must, Post 17 has the MDs email addresses HOWEVER...

This is only a guess at this point (These are not guaranteed to work)

[dx100uk]

I once sent back a motherboard 3.5yrs old

it said it was USB 3 upgradeable,

when I went to eventually do it - it wasn't.

got a new motherboard no issues

 

 

simply follow their returns system.

 

 

its normally painless.

 

 

dx

[Terrace]

resit to post 1

I suspect you've yet to contact them?

 

I cant see you having any issue getting it sorted with overclockers.

 

they will be well aware of the issues of what you are trying to do.

 

and the issues with those cards.

 

 

dx

 

Ah I see most people in this topic are familiar with them, I have started to contact them and I'll share what has been written so far, first my initial question to the RMA web form

 

 

• We have been having a problem with the Graphics Cards we have purchased as when you use AMD R9 290's in crossfire with 3 monitors they have horrible issues and yet it clearly says on the box and instructions that they can do Crossfire and MultiMonitor without problems.
   
  A simple Google search for the exact phrase without the quotes "R9 290 crossfire audio" will bring up some and "R9 290 crossfire dpc latency issue" will bring up some more and those are just two ways of searching for people with the same confirmed problem. None of people who have marked their issue as solved have really solved it.
   
  Of course our computer will need new graphics cards so we would like to exchange the unsatisfactory R9 290's that are not fit for purpose for two GTX 980 Ti Gaming 6G and pay the difference in costs.
   
  I realise this case is outside the time frame of your stores return policy but I am referring to consumer rights in which you have up to six years to complain. Hopefully the fact that I am looking to exchange and invest the money back in the store and even more on top of that will be seen favourably.
  

at this point they ask back about the fact I had to exchange one of the new cards for another brand right after it was delivered to me because the second card was half a centimetre too big to fit inside the case, I simply asked for another model and we split the diffrence.

 

• Thankyou for your webnote.
   
  From the order I can see that one of the Sapphire graphics cards was refunded shortly after purchase is that correct?
  

 

• Yes that is correct, the Sapphire Tri-X R9 290 did not fit within the case, you then very kindly swapped one for a slightly shorter model that you can see in this PDF Invoice you sent me, a Gigabyte Radeon R9 290 OC WindForce 4096MB GDDR5
  

 

• "Can I please confirm if the graphics cards have been checked individually to check whether one of them is indicating an obvious fault at all?"
   
  If there is a fault with one or both of the cards then as the order is now almost 18 months old they would need to be sent to manufacturer for repair/replacement service as the warranty period is held with them.
  

This is the part that worried me because most layman friendly explanations of the sale of goods act say the first thing a store will do is say it's not their problem but the manufacturer. So I then sent them this email:

 

• The fault is with two R9 290 graphics cards in crossfire on multiple monitors which means the fault with the product was there from day one of sale and that the product was sold as faulty as they clearly advertise that you can run the graphics cards together on multiple monitors. That said the solution you have provided cannot work:
   
   
  1. Getting a replacement is pointless as the problem will be on the new R9 290's.
  2. Sending them for repairs is pointless as the problem is manufactured into the cards, the only solution is to use other graphics cards.
   
   
  This is why we sent the first email stating that we're interested in other graphics cards after having found out these one will not work together on multiple monitors. What more can we do to assure you that we would not like more/different/repairs R9 290's? If after learning that if you used them as advertised I'm sure you yourself would not want to keep them for your home system. The only fault with them independently as far as we can see if that they can't be used together on multiple monitors which is a huge independent fault if that is exactly what you are doing with them! Once again we are interested in two 980 TI Graphics cards and a resolution that arrives us at them.
  

[dx100uk]

its std for them to refer back to the manu.

 

 

I've had this done 4 or 5 times now.

 

 

always ended up with the products being either replaced or credit given against a product providing the same or better functionality.

 

 

I have once had an issue where the manu returned to them stating the product was performing within spec

they themselves tested it, trying to do what I wanted

they couldn't do it either & supplied a replacement capable of the needs I required

they even tested that first.

 

 

cost me an extra £45 - fair comment, it was a better product. as the old one was many years of age.

 

 

IMHO , if you are reasonable, they will be too.

 

 

dx

[Terrace]

I most certainly agree with DX, I use PC Specialist and OverClockers... They are top notch but if you must, Post 17 has the MDs email addresses HOWEVER...

This is only a guess at this point (These are not guaranteed to work)

 

Do you think I should finish my conversation with the person behind the RMA Web form reply completely through first or try and also talk to one of these other people straight away simultaneously because it might get to the result quicker and smoother?

 

IMHO , if you are reasonable, they will be too.

 

 

dx

 

I really hope so, I was disappointed enough when I plugged those two extra monitors in and it didn't work right, I really didn't want what I really really feel is a simple swap to drag out or go wrong.

 

It just blows my mind that it's advertised on the box and its been a known problem for 2 years and AMD haven't lifted a finger, I can't wait to be with the other manufacturer as most people I know use Nvidia and don't run into problems.

[JoeyJoeC]

How are you using the cards for multiple monitors? What monitors, which connection type, and what cable in to where? I've had a few R9 290's, not had a problem.

 

Sounds like you're using HDMI for the monitors which won't work on some R9 290's. You can use DisplayPort with adapters, or use the two DVI's and one DP with an adapter. This should work.

[Terrace]

How are you using the cards for multiple monitors? What monitors, which connection type, and what cable in to where? I've had a few R9 290's, not had a problem.

 

Sounds like you're using HDMI for the monitors which won't work on some R9 290's. You can use DisplayPort with adapters, or use the two DVI's and one DP with an adapter. This should work.

 

I am using three BenQ G2222HDL Monitors, They are all connected to the R9 290 Sapphire Tri-X which is in the first PCI-E and the Gigabyte Radeon R9 290 OC WindForce is in the second PCI-E slot. The monitors are all HD certified and only have VGA and DVI connections. I have them connected as DVI, DVI and Eyefinity certified Display Port to DVI.

 

The 100% repeatable way to get the problem to occur:

 

1. Set Desktop to Extended Desktop Mode (important)
   
2. Play any third party sound source MP3, Internet Radio, Video File (audibly helpful)
   
3. Now run any game with Crossfire and Vsync turned on and get ready to cover your ears!
   

 

• If you set the desktop to Eyefinity Desktop instead and run a game that runs triple screen like Dirt 3 or whatever following the same steps the problem doesn't occur which proves there isn't anything wrong with the cables or sound card or anything., you can even run a game that doesn't run triple screen or turn the triple screen compatible game to a single screen resolution and it will duplicate on all three monitors without a problem too.
  

 

• If you follow the same steps and turn one of the Graphics Cards in the Catalyst Control Centre off then the problem doesn't occur. but then you have a £280 graphics card turned off and idle like a paperweight
  

 

• If you follow the same steps and turn Vsync off then the problem doesn't occur either but there is all sorts of problems with that too, screen tearing, some games won't even let you turn it off, some games force vsync on the cut scenes even if you turn it off for the rest of the game and my favourite some games force vsync on when you alt tab out of it if you can believe that! even when its off when you have the program in the forefront!
  

So if it can work with Eyefinity Desktop mode then why not use that all the time? well if you run a game that cannot be displayed across three screens it duplicates the game across all three monitors. some times it isn't even that the game can't be run in a three screen resolution but that it would ruin weather the game was fair for other players I.E a lot of competitive online games only support three screens in the single player mode. Which brings us back to the beggining, you should be able to use Extended Desktop mode and most people will be spending alot of time in extended desktop mode.

 

and it's not just me either, it's well documented with the google searches "R9 290 crossfire audio" , "R9 290 crossfire DPC latency issue" I still just can't post links to specific threads as I don't have 10 posts yet.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Terrace