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    • Hi slick!    On 22 July they said they would refund me £74.07 Theres no DD in place as my membership was a once off payment in November last year.  Hi Dx,    I paid through PayPal last year as a one off payment. 
    • I'm trying to understand it all but I certainly tend to agree with my colleague @dx100uk that it looks as if you may have been taken for a ride. You found an advertisement for a bag on an online sales site. Instead of going through the established procedure of that site, which presumably allows them to recover a commission from the seller you started dealing directly with the seller who is an unknown person to you and of course that allowed the seller to avoid paying the commission. At whose suggestion was it that you went off-site? You then pay by PayPal but instead of logging it with PayPal as a payment for a purchased item, you tell PayPal that it was actually simply a gift or transaction between friends and family. This also allowed the seller to avoid paying a PayPal fee on the money. At whose suggestion was it that you paid in this way?       I don't say that you definitely have been scammed, but it doesn't look very good. This is how it might have happened: after you agreed to take the transaction off-site, so you lost the protection of the established system – and the seller avoided the commission and also avoided the sales site knowing that they had sold their item, you then agreed to pay the seller some money – but not for a purchase – simply as a gift. This has two consequences. Firstly, the seller avoids a PayPal fee and secondly, because PayPal has been misled as to the purpose of the payment, you lose the protection of PayPal if it turns out that you've been scammed or there is some other problem with the transaction. The seller then apparently sent you the parcel and they sent you pictures of a package with your address on it. Separately they sent you a Hermes tracking number – but there is no evidence that the package was actually posted to your address. The seller might simply have taken a picture with your address and sent that to you by way of reassurance – and then changed the label and posted the parcel to themselves but sent you a tracking number which is inaccessible to you and in respect of which you will be prevented from getting any information. All you've seen is a parcel with your address on it. All you've been given is a tracking number which satisfied you for a while until the parcel did not arrive and then when you started to make enquiries, you found that you were unable to access any details referring to the tracking number. Of course the tracking number says that the item was delivered – because maybe it was – but in that case it was delivered to the address on the parcel which might have been the seller's own address – or the address of a friend. I don't want to say that this is definitely how it happened, but it is a plausible scenario. Of course Hermes is an awful lot of parcels – but on the other hand I expect that most of the parcel is that going to Hermes hands are delivered successfully. We only get the bad stories on this forum. I can imagine that Hermes rate of successful deliveries is better than 97% because otherwise people wouldn't simply just hate them, they would go out of business.   We can help you bring a complaint against Hermes if you want. However, on the basis of what you say, the odds are stacked against you but it would be useful to try and find out the address which was associated with tracking number. As far as your apparent willingness to travel hundred and 50 miles to ask for your money back, don't bother. If you did actually go there, are you sure that the seller actually lives at the address that you have been given? What evidence do you have that? Of course if you found that the seller didn't reside at that address then it is slamdunk that you have been scammed. But then what are you going to do? You can try to inform the police but of course it won't get you anywhere. You can inform the sales website – but they will say that you brought it on yourself because you agreed to go off-site. You can inform PayPal – that they will say that because you sent the money which was calculated to avoid their fees, you have lost the protection. If you travelled the 150 miles and found that the seller did reside at that address, do you really think that they are going to hand your money over to you? If they are acting dishonestly then they will simply say that it is nothing to do with them, that they addressed it all correctly and they don't understand what has happened and that this is simply Hermes up to their old tricks. What are you going to do? You simply risk getting into a very nasty argument and depending on how bad it went, you might even find that the police are called and I'm afraid that they would be looking at you – not the seller. Maybe you can answer the questions that I've post above as to who it is who initiated the various ways of doing business.    
    • The legal campaign's going well then. The recount in Wisconsin gave Trump more votes but Biden even more, at a cost of $3m. And a donor to the organisation bringing the failed cases is suing to get his $2.5m back.   https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/28/joe-biden-gains-votes-in-wisconsin-county-after-trump-ordered-recount
    • Yes Unicorn feed tax again, can't sue the keeper for more than the Original Charge, so any additional Debt Collection fees aka the £60 they add is abuse,iof process as per HHJ Harvey at Lewes county Court What lookedinfroinfo is indicating is that the main signage on entry and dotted around is merely an " Invitation to Treat", not the offer, the Offer and Acceptance occurs at the payment machine, so wording there is key.
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Hi

My parents wanted to close down their investment accounts with Standard Life and have the money in their banks so they could access their money more easily. They are in their 80s and are not that bothered about earning interest.

 

 

We wrote to Standard Life, at their request, quite clearly stating which bank account to deposit the money.

 

 

They paid the money, £27,500, into the wrong account. They paid it into a joint account, which is shared with my brother. Because my brother has been helping himself to the money, we have had to use my Dad's sole current account for any deposits, ie his pensions.

 

 

Of course now my brother has stolen the £27,500, transferring it online to his own bank account. He also stole £94 from their joint account.

 

 

We are in the process of freezing the joint account. A complaint has been raised with Standard Life as to how they could have made such an error. The woman I spoke to on Thursday said it was their error.

 

 

Therefore, if my brother will not pay back the money he affectively 'stole', I would say it is up to Standard Life to recompense us. I would also like compensation for the stress their error has caused.

 

 

My Dad has not asked my brother for the money back because he is slightly frightened of him.

 

 

Do you think it unreasonable to ask Standard Life for compensation as well as refunding the money?

 

 

If you think it is reasonable to ask for compensation, how much would you suggest we ask for?

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Ouch.

 

I have moved your thread to the correct forum - you need do nothing, it is purely an administrative move.

 

I will alert others on the site team for some advice.

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Do you have a copy of the letter you wrote to Standard Life, with the correct bank details ?

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Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

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3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

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2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

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Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Yes. and they have the letter on file too.

 

 

I asked the woman which bank account details were on the letter. She said it was their error, and although they have a backlog, they have already raised a complaint and are currently investigating.

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I am just finding it very scary that they have made payment into a totally different account.

 

I am sure other caggers with more experience and knowledge will be with you as soon as they can.

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Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Hello there.

 

I can't really add to what CB has said. I would also have complained to Standard Life, and you have proof of what you say. If you aren't happy with their reply, and I hope they will be honourable, then you need to go to the Financial Ombudsman. You have to exhaust Standard Life's complaints procedure or give them 8 weeks to resolve the problem, from memory.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Hi

This is just my opinion with no legal backing to ensure what I say is correct however...

 

Standard Life should immediately reimburse them with a small level of compensation then they can chase the brother. He knew he wasn't entitled to the cash but took it anyway so that (IMO) is a criminal matter but they could just as easily take him to court for the money.

 

I would reject any solution from SL that you chase the brother

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How did SL get the wrong account number?

 

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Smile £1,075.50 + interest Email request for payment 24/5/06 received £1,000.50 14/7/06 + £20 30/7/06

Yorkshire Bank Moneyclaim issued 21/6/06 £4,489.39 full settlement received 26 January 2007

:p

 

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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I don't know how they got the wrong account number. That's the worrying thing. I did say to the woman that maybe my brother had called them and told them to put it in the joint account. She said they would never do that.

 

 

I also suggested that he might be saying that he is the registered Power of Attorney. I was registered as my Dad's Power of Attorney last month, so if that is the case, they should have checked. She still said they wouldn't have done that. But yes, how did they have that account number?

 

 

I hope they do chase him for the money. They need to explain themselves.

 

 

We didn't even tell him we'd closed down the accounts, but he knew. Therefore their Financial Advisor must have told him. I asked the FA four times how my brother knew about it. He refused to discuss it, so I have made an official complaint about him to the Financial Ombudsman. They have written to the network the FA belongs to and they have four weeks to reply. (or 3 now, as I complained last week). If I'm still not happy, I will go back to the FO, who will investigate further.

 

 

My brother is so used to doing exactly what he wants that now he doesn't have as much control anymore, he is causing trouble. He has been syphoning money from that account for years, and the only person who has challenged him is me. We moved my Dad's money across to his sole current account and left £40 in there.

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I can't advise on the initial problem, but I would suggest It would be beneficial to send a SAR request ASAP too, to build a picture of what happened.

Specifically ask for telephone recordings (admitting their error but not telling them), and all details on the account.

 

This information will assist you in either proof of fraud from your brother or incompetence by standard life.

Mee_too

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I agree about the SAR as this could provide useful data.

 

Re the joint a/c to which the £27.5K was wrongly credited, can you confirm who else was named on the a/c besides your brother.

 

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Hi SS,

 

Have you sent off the SAR to Standard Life yet ? SL has 40 days to respond.

 

You said earlier - "My Dad has not asked my brother for the money back because he is slightly frightened of him."

 

But if you want this resolved and the money refunded, you may need to report the matter to the police and/or the Court of Protection

 

The bank may not be willing to repay the money if, as they assert, they've done nothing wrong.

 

IMHO you need to hold SL responsible for crediting the money to the wrong a/c, if they made an error at that time.

 

I hope the SAR response will clarify how the money was sent to the wrong a/c in the first place. If your brother was somehow responsible for this, you may need to make a complaint to the police.

 

I suggest you review the matter of POA if you/your parents are unable to trust your brother absolutely.

 

Please keep us updated.

Edited by slick132
changed to "if, as they assert"

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Hi Slick132

 

 

SAR letters were posted Recorded Delivery to SL yesterday and should have arrived today. I have emphasised, as suggested here, that we want ALL telephone recordings, particularly as the woman I spoke to said it was their error.

 

 

My parents changed the POA this year from him to me. Originally it was me, but he got them to change it to him a few years ago. Since my Dad told him they were changing it back to me for practical reasons (he hasn't lived in the country for 30 years, just wants control), he has done nothing but cause trouble. He got the OPG involved. They saw certificate providers, at the request of the solicitors changing the POA and the OPG/Court of Protection due to my brother's challenge. They said both have capacity to revoke the existing POA. I am now the registered Lasting Power of Attorney, registered last month.

 

 

My brother is still objecting to this. I have liaised with the OPG case worker, and emailed her on Sunday about my brother stealing money from them. I asked her to acknowledge my email, but she hasn't yet. (But she has been on holiday, returning yesterday).

 

 

I'm not blaming the bank, I spoke to them first. They said one of the people named on the joint account had taken it (obviously my brother), but they were not responsible for other people paying money in. No, it's definitely SL we want answers from. I did suggest calling the Police initially, but my Dad said that was a bit extreme.

 

 

Not sure what to do now, I will call SL again tomorrow - it will have been one week since my initial call. If my brother has been responsible, we will want an apology from SL, as well as reimbursement and compensation. And I may well then get the Police involved (and let his wife's family know what he's been up to).

 

 

Such a waste of time and energy!!!

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I may be misunderstanding but did Standard Life have a record of the power of attorney allowing the brother to act in relation to your parents affairs? Did you inform them that this had been revoked?

 

edited to add: SL have 8 weeks from your complaint to investigate and provide you with a final decision allowing you to escalate to the ombudsman for free.

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Why did you not transfer the money into your dads sole account as soon as you discovered that brother was helping himself, or did he take it in one lump sum ? If you had cancelled the account mandate as soon as you realised, the account would have been frozen instantly.

 

As much as I agree that SL have made an error and should refund the money, they will argue that they paid the money into an account controlled and accessible by your father.

 

You really need to make a complaint of theft to the police, but I can see them saying it was a joint account and he was within his rights to remove money from it. It all depends on the account mandate signed when it was opened and whether brother paid any money into the account.

 

If SL confirm that brother contacted them and had the money re-routed into the joint account then either you or SL will have to make a complaint to the police of fraud by misrepresentation or making/using a false instrument.

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If SL confirm that brother contacted them and had the money re-routed into the joint account then either you or SL will have to make a complaint to the police of fraud by misrepresentation or making/using a false instrument.

 

Misrepresentation is a civil wrong (tort).

 

The criminal act is "fraud by false representation" (rather than "fraud by misrepresentation").

S2, Fraud Act 2006.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/section/2

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Tsx - I don't know if he told them he was POA, I didn't even think of telling them it had been revoked. Maybe I should write to them and send a copy of the new registration. I gave a copy to their doctor. I thought a doctor had to confirm that a person didn't have capacity anymore before the POA could do anything anyway, and would have to produce receipts to the Court of Protection if necessary.

 

 

CrappoMan - he took it in one lump sum. He never paid any money into the account. However, only my Dad's money went in, not my mum's. I did think of checking with the bank if the money had gone in, but really never thought I'd have to. I hadn't set up internet banking until then, because I didn't want to give my bother any opportunity to say I had access to their money. I set up online banking AFTER he stole that money because I was so furious. I have transferred everything else they have to my Dad's account, and we sent a form back to the bank saying to close down the joint savings account and transfer everything to my dad's current account. There will be a recording with the woman at the bank saying it was awful that we couldn't trust a family member.

 

 

We rerouted all my Dad's money into his sole account back in March because of my brother syphoning it off, so there was only about £40 in there. My Dad might have access to the account, but he hasn't been using it. We went to the branch and explained that we were moving his direct debits across because my brother had been syphoning money.

 

 

They have 2 joint accounts - the current account where the lump sum was deposited, and the savings account. The savings account is being frozen. I am going to try and set up internet banking for my mum. They only just got round to setting up telephone banking. Or I might have to take them to the branch to see if the other lump sum actually went into her account.

 

 

Whether SL argue that the money was paid into a joint account or not - my Dad sent a letter specifically telling them which account to pay into, and they didn't. SL have already admitted to me over the phone that it was their error, a complaint has been raised and they are investigating. I also told them twice on the phone that I am now the registered Power of Attorney. I also asked her if he might have taken the money because he said he was POA and she said they still would never do that.

 

 

BazzaaS - If we do call the police, how do we prove it's "Fraud by false representation"? I would ask that he provides receipts for the £91 he took from the savings account on the same day, the £4000 he took before Christmas, and other money he transferred into his account. Was he so arrogant he thought we wouldn't check the paper bank statements??

 

 

SL were supposed to pay my mum's lump sum into her separate account, and my dad's into his. Only my Dad's money went into the joint account.

 

 

I will have to ring SL again today and say I am considering calling the Police. They should have received the SAR by now.

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I was close enough.

 

The fraud offences are only relevant if brother did something he shouldn't, like contact SL to re-route the money. The theft from the joint account is easier to prove especially as you have the bank statements showing the transfers. If brother had never paid any money into the joint account then he can't claim that any of it belonged to him. Hopefully the SAR will show what happened.

 

The longer you put off calling the police, the more time brother has to spend/hide the money.

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I might be barking up the wrong tree on this but Standard Life are negligent and the buck stops with them.

 

You gave them explicit instructions in writing that the payment was to be credited into xyz account. They failed to do that so are in breach of contract.

 

Standard life needs to immediately reimburse your parents the full amount and then commence recovery action against the brother. Through the police if necessary

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