Illegal Phone Recording?

[seamark]

When I first opened my Pub I had many different businesses contacting me with offers to promote my pub in their magazines,

website or Pub Guides of some description or another.

 

one that I did sign up to was "The Official Pubs Guide"

 

 

After two years I told them I was not interested anymore. I never had any sort of direct debit with them and t was done on a yearly basis.

They phoned me and I either agreed and paid them, or as the last time, I did not agree and did not pay them.

 

A year later they phoned and said I had an outstanding bill with them for last years entry on their WebSite.

I told them that I had not agreed to go in that year and had specifically told them I did not want to.

All this was over the phone.

 

 

The other thing is that on the two previous occasions I paid there and then over the phone.

The fact that I didn’t for last years entry means I did not agree.

 

They came back and said that they had a recording on me agreeing to it, and duly played it to me.

I said that the recording could have been from one of the two years I did agree to go into their publication.

 

Since then I have received a demand from debt collectors Daniel Silverman.

i have sent back the standard letter asking them to send me proof that I owe it,

but what I really want to know is did the Official Pubs Guide illegally record my conversation,

and if they did , what recourse do I have?

 

Can recorded conversations be date stamped? If so then I am in the clear as I know I never agreed the last year.

 

I really want to go aggressive on this as I feel that a recording of my conversation was done without my permission,

or I was not made aware of the fact that they were recording me.

 

 

Please note it was always them that phoned me.

 

Thanx

Seamark

[unclebulgaria67]

When I first opened my Pub I had many different businesses contacting me with offers to promote my pub in their magazines, website or Pub Guides of some description or another.

 

Anyway, one that I did sign up to was "The Official Pubs Guide" After two years I told them I was not interested anymore. I never had any sort of direct debit with them and t was done on a yearly basis.

They phoned me and I either agreed and paid them, or as the last time, I did not agree and did not pay them.

 

A year later they phoned and said I had an outstanding bill with them for last years entry on their WebSite. I told them that I had not agreed to go in that year and had specifically told them I did not want to. All this was over the phone. The other thing is that on the two previous occasions I paid there and then over the phone. The fact that I didn’t for last years entry means I did not agree.

 

They came back and said that they had a recording on me agreeing to it, and duly played it to me. I said that the recording could have been from one of the two years I did agree to go into their publication.

 

Since then I have received a demand from debt collectors Daniel Silverman. i have sent back the standard letter asking them to send me proof that I owe it, but what I really want to know is did the Official Pubs Guide illegally record my conversation, and if they did , what recourse do I have?

 

Can recorded conversations be date stamped? If so then I am in the clear as I know I never agreed the last year.

 

I really want to go aggressive on this as I feel that a recording of my conversation was done without my permission, or I was not made aware of the fact that they were recording me. Please note it was always them that phoned me.

 

Thanx

Seamark

 

They can record whether they tell you or not. Good practice is to tell people calls are recorded.

 

Best advice is to use the Data Protection Act. Send the company a Data Protection Act Subject Access Request for a copy of the phone call recording and all data relating to the recording of the phone call i.e computer data showing the date and time of the phone call recording. Click on subject access request for a letter you can adjust to suit. You need to send the £10 as the admin fee fir such a request.

[silverfox1961]

Hi,

I agree with the SAR aspect. Getting copies of all the calls made or received is important as by what you say, they will only be able to provide two out of the three calls and (hopefully) they will be date stamped.

 

You could also contact your phone company and get copies of all calls received which hopefully will show how long the calls lasted for then compare them to when you agreed and when you refused. Highly likely there will be a discrepancy with the times.

 

This 'ruse' has been seen many times before.

[seamark]

Thanks for that.

 

I will do that. Another question. I have asked the debt collector company to send me proof, but it seems the only proof that the main company have is this recording. Are they allowed to pass recordings on to third parties. I always though that they could not.

 

Thanx

Seamark

[silverfox1961]

Thanks for that.

 

I will do that. Another question. I have asked the debt collector company to send me proof, but it seems the only proof that the main company have is this recording. Are they allowed to pass recordings on to third parties. I always though that they could not.

 

Thanx

Seamark

 

That, I don't know! I would have thought that as a business they had a duty to inform you that all calls are recorded (usually stated for 'training purposes') If they haven't done that, I can't see how they can pass them on. Just guessing of course. Something else for me to look up

[unclebulgaria67]

That, I don't know! I would have thought that as a business they had a duty to inform you that all calls are recorded (usually stated for 'training purposes') If they haven't done that, I can't see how they can pass them on. Just guessing of course. Something else for me to look up

 

They can pass to debt collectors, IF the OP agreed to data being used by the original company. There is usually a data protection part to any contract and it is whether and what scope it provides.

 

I would think debt collection would be accepted by ICO, provided it was relevant data.

[seamark]

In that case I may as well save £10 and just let the debt collector gather the recorded evidence from the main company. I presume they will have to prove when the recording was made through date stamps or some other means. Think I will just wait for them to send me the proof, and if it is just a recording with out any date then I will dispute it. If it does have a date stamp then I know I am in the clear.

 

Thanks again for all your advice.

Seamark

[Bazooka Boo]

I'll be mighty impressed if the DCA even gets a sniff of what evidence the pub guide has that you owe them anything.

 

They pretty much will tell them (DCA) to go after such and such and demand this figure, when you dispute it with the DCA, they then go back to the OC

who will just inform them that yes you owe xyz for services they 'claim' to have provided you.

 

Personally I'd ignore DS and focus entirely on the pub guide, they must be signed up to some regulatory body of some sort??

[Mr.P]

They can record whether they tell you or not. Good practice is to tell people calls are recorded.

 

But if they have not told you that the calls are being recorded, they can not use them in a court should it ever get that far.

 

Does a verbal agreement constitute a valid business contract and were the terms and conditions ever supplied ?

[dx100uk]

as with all these online or phone directory listings

they always try it on

and say you agreed etc etc.

 

 

they'll never go near a court nor have any of them ever been to court.

 

 

pers I'd be ignoring the lot of em

they've no proof

and a call recording is inadmissible evidence anyway.

 

 

just remember that these DCA's and their famk/tame solicitors

ARE NOT BAILIFFS

and have

NO SUCH LEGAL POWERS.

 

 

dx

[estellyn]

surely the recording would have you paying if you paid there and then. Did they cut off the recording before the call ended when they played it to you? If so ask them to play the full recording till the phone is put down.

[DonkeyB]

Assuming I have looked up the correct company, I’ve looked at their T&Cs, which is what you should also do.

 

According to the T&Cs I found, the contract is a rolling one and auto-renews until you cancel in writing at least one month before the due renewal date. So if the recording is an old one, they will claim that was the relevant agreement, and you did not cancel in writing. Look them up! It’s a poor business practice, but common among companies like this. You might want to argue it’s an unfair contract.

 

The T&Cs also refer to recorded confirmation calls.

 

So tread carefully.

[seamark]

Yes i did have a look at their T&C's and noticed this the other day. I think I can argue that it is an unfair contract and am investigating how I can go about this. In the mean time I have asked for the proof from the Debt Collectors, which will give me some breathing space before we go into the next round.

Thanx

Seamark

[DonkeyB]

Yes i did have a look at their T&C's and noticed this the other day. I think I can argue that it is an unfair contract and am investigating how I can go about this. In the mean time I have asked for the proof from the Debt Collectors, which will give me some breathing space before we go into the next round.

Thanx

Seamark

 

That’s the way to do it – research the facts first!

[JoeyJoeC]

Surely, if the person that called you and played back the recording is not the person who called you in the recording, then they have broken the law here? as they haven't informed him that the call was being recorded?

 

I thought that only the person recording the call could use it for their own reference if it wasn't announced. Or is this different for companies?

[obiter dictum]

Technically the do not have to inform you orally the calls will be recorded. Giving you notification in the small print will be enough on any agreement/statement you have with the original company will be enough as you would have them been informed on company policy.

[DonkeyB]

Different if a company states it will or could record, which its T&Cs do state. A company is a separate legal entity and its employees would be allowed to access the recording under certain circumstances.

[JoeyJoeC]

Different if a company states it will or could record, which its T&Cs do state. A company is a separate legal entity and its employees would be allowed to access the recording under certain circumstances.

 

Surely the T&C's don't come into effect until he has made the purchase, which happens at the end of the calls presumably. But I guess that since he "agrees" to the T&C's in the end, then he has given permission for the call to be recorded anyway?

[DonkeyB]

Surely the T&C's don't come into affect until he has made the purchase, which happens at the end of the calls presumably.

 

But he did make a purchase – two, according to the thread. Then the contract rolls on.

[JoeyJoeC]

From a google review:

 

They called me wanting to advert with them straight away, I put them off because I was busy and wanted to research first but they called back again with the hour and I agreed for them to send a Rep and was told to have a look on there website and if i didn't want to go ahead to 'phone back and cancel' . But they sent a rep anyway, with a invoice!! After disputing this and listening to there part recorded call (a bit strange when all calls are recorded) I thought forgot it and paid the invoice to get rid of them. Not impressed at all

 

From a complaints website:

 

My son's small pub company is being pursued by debt collectors Daniels Silverman (previously complained about on this site) relating to an invoice in dispute on behalf of UK Food and Drink Guide for payment for online advertising that we have not agreed. This company have an insistent salesman who despite our requests to show us the order we supposedly placed and the terms and conditions has not been able to do so. The same company also run the OfficialPubGuide and operate similar tactics. Daniels Silverman write threatening letters without being able to show us the proof of the debt

[DonkeyB]

From a google review:

 

 

 

From a complaints website:

 

Good digging. This is how you beat them – stack up the evidence and get the supposed ‘evidence’ from them.

[JoeyJoeC]

http://www.officialpubguide.com/terms.php

 

There are the terms. Under "8 Cancellation and Termination of Agreement:", it does mention that the call is recorded. It also says that you need to cancel 1 month before, but then also says 4 weeks. So not sure which it is.

[CrappoMan]

Ask for a copy of the phonecall in its entirety, from handset pick-up to put-down.

 

When you have it, see how long it is and compare with the relevant phonebill.

[estellyn]

But surely they've contradicted their own contract by phoning a second time and asking if he wanted to renew? If it's a rolling contract, then that wouldn't be necessary. and surely you would receive an invoice for the rolling contract at the beginning of the year that needed paying for, not the end.

[JoeyJoeC]

But surely they've contradicted their own contract by phoning a second time and asking if he wanted to renew? If it's a rolling contract, then that wouldn't be necessary. and surely you would receive an invoice for the rolling contract at the beginning of the year that needed paying for, not the end.

 

They didn't call to ask to renew, they called to take payment for the automatic renew.

 

I want to know what he signed for, was it just a verbal agreement over the phone? Were the T&C's mentioned in this call? Was he sent a copy of the T&C's?