two old co-op debts sold to cabot - for how much?

[dx100uk]

what you have is the std replies from cabot to CCA requests

if you read a few cabot threads here

nothing to worry about,

[ismylife]

But if they are claiming that the other debt is just an overdraft when it was originally a Loan and a small bit of an overdraft, where does that leave me with that debt and them having to supply the proofs of the original loan?

 

They returned my postal order by the way!

[Conniff]

Can I just go a bit off topic for a sec ismylife.

 

 

It's not too much of a problem they can leave messages and I can save them and I have my mobile phone for my family and friends if necessary. I sometimes even unplug it anyway.

 

 

Why not give up your landline altogether and save yourself £16 per month ?

[dx100uk]

let them willy wave all they like

co-op sold your debts for a reason

find it...

 

 

hows the sar to the co-op doing.

 

 

dx

[ismylife]

Eek I just typed out a long response and it's not posted. I must have done something wrong.

I hate it when that happens because now I'll have to remember what I said and why because once I've typed something it goes out of my head.

 

dx100uk - I haven't sent the SAR to the Co-op as I mentioned above. I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say 'find the reason' for them selling the debt.

 

They sold this at the time when their real murky business situation was coming to public light.

If I have to send a SAR, it means having to buy a £10 postal order and I'm not sure what this will result in.

Even if it does show that they sold the debts to legally 'adjust' their books, I don't understand how that will help.

 

What kind of thing do you hope the SAR results will show

because I know and have found the clear evidence that the original PPI on the loan was repaid in full

and the outstanding amounts are definitely the actual debts

because I also received a refund for the one time a penalty payment was charged after a lot of pushing?

 

I am more concerned that the Co-op have merged the PL account with the old current account and how this will affect my rights under Section 77/78/79.

 

Conliff, I understand where you are coming from and want to help, thank you, but really don't want to discuss that as it detracts from the actual topic and risks getting in the way of what is important for me right now.

[AndyOrch]

But if they are claiming that the other debt is just an overdraft when it was originally a Loan and a small bit of an overdraft, where does that leave me with that debt and them having to supply the proofs of the original loan?

 

They returned my postal order by the way!

 

Did you quote the personal loan account number or the current account number?

 

Andy

[dx100uk]

the sar will get you everything the co-op holds on you

and prob tell you if they did merge them.

 

 

if you'd done that when asked you'd prob not have this current issue

as you'd know the truth of what happened and not be wondering....

 

 

dx

[ismylife]

andyorch - I quoted Cabot the two account numbers that I have. I had to go back over all my paperwork to remember this but the Personal Loan account always did have the same number as the Current account and in looking at my earliest correspondence, I can remember a conversation with the Co-op about that but cannot remember their explanation. But this was how it was set up from the beginning.

 

I have separate correspondence from the Co-op where they use the same account number for both the Personal Loan account and the Privilege Current Account.

 

I also have the printouts which they sent covering transactions for both accounts back in 2009 when I was having a battle to get the info from FI. These show the same account number for the Loan account and Current account before they were merged.

 

The other one is the Credit Card which does have a different acc number and which Cabot are saying they may take up to 40 days to get the information on etc.

 

 

dx100uk

if you'd done that when asked you'd prob not have this current issue

as you'd know the truth of what happened and not be wondering....

 

I do know that the accounts were merged, as explained. I have the printouts to show this.

 

Even if I had sent the SAR immediately when you suggested it two weeks ago, they have 40 days to comply so at a guess, I'd still be waiting for anything.

 

Earlier you said:

 

well an SAR might have gotten you the agreements but if they were enforceable that's another matter

and immaterial now

as cabot own them and MUST themselves provide the documentation & we must then see/get it checked as enforceable.

 

So I took it that you meant I should just wait for Cabot to respond to the CCA requests.

 

I realise it's not always easy to get all the facts out and make sure I get things clear, and I was confused about what you think a SAR would achieve that might help.

 

So, thinking this through now - I have correspondence from the Co-op that clearly shows there was a Loan Account which was separate from the Current Account and then the printouts showing they were merged.

 

So if Cabot are saying that this debt is only a "current account with overdraft facilities" and won't apply to the Co-op for the information under the CCA request, I come back to this question of does the action that the Co-op took in merging the accounts affect my rights under the s.77/78 etc?

 

If I send the SAR to the Co-op and they fail to produce a copy of the original agreement of the Personal Loan, all I have to prove it was a PL is the correspondence during the first year or so when I into difficulties and the printouts.

 

Even if they do provide the information (a copy of the original loan agreement), does this make a difference to how Cabot have to treat it?

 

I shall send the SAR because Cabot clearly will not move to obtain the info on the Personal Loan agreement and I have it all ready to go, but it's an extra £11 at least to get the Postal Order and send the letter by RD and I have to wait until I am going into town for shopping etc because it costs me in taxi fares as I'm disabled and that's the only way I currently have to get around.

 

I wish there was an easier way to do all this as it's flipping difficult going over all the old stuff and trying to get it into my brain and remember all the facts and where to go with them. Even in writing this info tonight and trying to get all the info out, I have also found more letters that I wrote but didn't print, and some other stuff from FI that I'd fortunately only archived and not thrown out, but will need to go over this tomorrow.

 

I do thank you all for sticking with this.

[theoldrouge]

Every SAR contains a narrative, a goldmine of information

[dx100uk]

hey no sweat.

 

 

 

I quite understand

I know the co-op system very very well.

 

when they gave pers loans

they used the sort and the account number of your std bank account

then added 2 additional digits at the end.and called it P loan no .1/2/3 etc etc

 

so the loan will have the same number[start numbers] as your bank account

 

which is another thing.

 

i notice you have a priv account

you got charged the monthly 'packaged account' fee

this is reclaimable

 

as I bet you were told that to get an OD account [as you 'upgraded from a std current account]

you had to use the priv AC and this was an account fee for the OD

in fact the OD was 'free'

you paid for all manner of insurances you never used.

 

so in a way cabot are correct about the priv/OD in that theres no CCA.

 

so the loan and the priv/OD are not merged.

 

hth

 

dx

[ismylife]

Hi

Have nothing much else to update yet except to say I got the SAR in the post. Have not been very well at all - hence not responding to you earlier.

 

dx100uk -

 

when they gave pers loans

they used the sort and the account number of your std bank account

then added 2 additional digits at the end.and called it P loan no .1/2/3 etc etc

Yes, that is exactly what I seem to have.

 

So, I've gone over everything and I cannot remember why I thought the loan and current accounts were "merged".

 

What they did was to pay off the loan account by increasing the overdraft by that amount,

then close the loan account first,

and eventually the current account some 6 months later.

 

 

there is nothing in writing at the time to say they'd done this neither was I given any choice about it.

The correspondence just went from referencing the Loan account only and then it referenced the Current account.

 

It was only when I received the printouts some time later that I could see how they had 'adjusted' the accounts.

 

So, if the Co-op have sold on my loan account as a huge overdraft, is it still enforceable

and does Cabot still have to get a copy of the original loan agreement?

 

How do I handle this now?

 

With regard to the Privilege account, again you are correct in that I was charged a monthly fee but I cannot remember it,

only that in a letter of the same date that they had closed the Loan account without my knowing,

they say that because I have failed to clear the overdraft (which I had no idea at that time now included the Loan amount of over £4k)

they were cancelling all my 'benefits' and changing it to a standard account.

 

The monthly charges would go back from around 2006 (?) to August 2008

but I can only find odd bits of a statement in 2008

which shows I was paying £8.50 per month.

 

 

Would this be too late to claim back?

[dx100uk]

nope you can most certainly claim the fees back.

 

 

but they aint gonna be worth much really in the grand scheme of things?

[ismylife]

I think I'll have to wait to see what is provided, if anything, from the SAR to the Co-op to see how much I paid for the Priv account as i cannot even remember how long I had it for.

 

So, where do I stand with Cabot with the loan being transferred to the current account as an overdraft back in 2008 before it was sold on? Can they enforce it or is there another letter I need to send to deal with this?

[ismylife]

Does anyone know where I stand with the Loan account being closed and transferred to the current account overdraft by the Co-op and how to handle this with Cabot?

 

Should I respond to their letter about this?

 

i don't want to end up with a court claim and no definite way to defend it.

 

I also feel I should respond to their letter which crossed with mine a couple of weeks ago to challenge their 'loss' of the telephone recording which would have proved that their reps had lied in their notes, that a complaint was raised which I had not made and that they've misled me and mishandled my accounts. I am thinking I may need to address their offer of 'compensation' and what they offer in the way of payment holds.

 

This 'overdraft' debt though is really worrying as I cannot find any other thread where the same thing seems to have happened and how to handle it before it becomes court action.

[dx100uk]

if I were you I'd await the sar and its info

and seek any other sources of information and gather everything you can.

 

 

pers I would not be responding to cabot at this stage

 

 

there is already enough doubt to seriously question any court action should that ever happen.

 

 

and that's prob the reason you can't find no similar case...brave it out

 

although there are cases here concerning other banks and dca's and a like situation.

whereby non CCAand CCA governed debts have been merged and they've tried court.

 

don't forget, its down to them to prove the legitimacy of their case .

and as the OC has sold the debts, that's a good pointer to some dodgy going on.

 

 

dx

[ismylife]

Hi dx Thank you for the response.

 

I have found one thread where the advice is that with overdrafts, it depends on what the agreement about the overdraft was.

 

I don't have any original agreement, just letters stating the agreed o/d limit of £700. So, as the Co-op has unilaterally increased my overdraft on the current account by something like £4600 by using that to 'pay off' the Loan amount to close that account, they must provide the contractual information that existed to say they had the right to do this. Have I got this correct?

 

If the Co-op cannot provide a copy of the original Loan agreement that is binding either, and Cabot are not asking for it because they say it's an overdraft debt, surely somewhere in this, someone has to prove that one thing and / or the other has been correctly administered - they can't have it both ways?

 

 

ETA: Have just found the thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?438485-CO-OP-cca-sar-then-sells

 

and it's post #5

Edited September 1, 2015 by ismylife

[dx100uk]

I'd await the sar

if you get any more letters from crapbot

post them up

 

 

dx

[ismylife]

I have received a vast amount of paperwork from the Co-op, much of it is simply printouts of some of the transactions on the Credit Card from April 2005, but with so much information missing it's ridiculous. Many of the pages are simply header pages with a bit of data such as name and account number on them.

 

Utter waste of paper and pointless incomplete information - weighs nearly 900g for that section alone.

 

Then there is a small chunk of transactional data on the Personal Loan account, bits of info on charges on the credit card and I think the current account, and separate page of interest charges on the Personal Loan account.

 

There is a wodge of printouts of notes from telephone conversations much of which is in bank txtspk and makes no sense and notes of when correspondence was sent, but no copies of any correspondence.

 

(So I only have my own copies of some of the correspondence but realise that, for whatever reason, this is not everything that has been sent/received although it may have been about my challenging their surcharges and getting the refunds).

 

Then there are copies of the Credit Card Agreement and the Fixed Sum Loan Agreement which shows most of the relevant details / the "prescribed terms" but needless to say, the rest of the text on both copies is almost entirely illegible.

 

The letter states that they have sent a copy of all the available personal information which I am entitled to receive in response to the SAR under the DPA.

 

I have not had any response from Cabot at all, even though they said they would reply before the 40 day time scale they gave themselves, and it is well past that now.

 

In the meantime, I have suffered a series of blows which are making it very difficult for me to cope with all of this.

 

I am now in the process of being transferred from DLA to PIP and not only is it a race against time to get my form completed and returned, I am having a struggle to get anyone who I need support from (such as the Consultant) to even begin to want to understand the seriousness of my predicament.

 

Under the new rules, I have a very real chance of losing most of the mobility component and all of the small care component I have been in receipt of which will leave me effectively housebound and possibly risk no longer being able to live where I do = lose the little support network and enjoyment of life that I have.

 

I have also just found out that all the time I have been waiting for a hip op, I was never on the list, so no up to date medical records either. Another major stress issue to deal with because my whole health has been rapidly deteriorating this year especially.

 

So I'm really on the verge of just giving up because this is all just a total nightmare of a mess and I feel very threatened by it all. I appreciate that many will not be able to understand this, but I felt it important to explain why I'm falling to bits now.

 

i feel I am in a worse position than ever with no way to turn now.

 

I have managed to write another letter to Cabot detailing very clearly what I am challenging in their statements and where things simply do not add up and will have to wait to see what they come back with because, obviously, I know those reps have lied about their call notes and I've been seriously misled and given the run-around.

[dx100uk]

I think if you take things as a whole

 

if you cant work it out

 

I sure bet cabot cant either hence the lack of reply

 

sadly, as I'd already advised, its not a good idea to poke a dca with what will ultimately result in letter tennis.

 

put up or shut up cabot

 

and that's usually done by not sending a reply to anything unless advised too.

 

as for the benefits issues.

 

we have a very good crowd here

 

start a thread and tell them about your issues with pip etc.

 

 

dx

[ismylife]

I have been spending all morning just trying to wade through the information sent by the Co-op to check what they've sent (or not) and see if there is anything that doesn't add up.

 

Have found a discrepancy. Looking back over my letters to them and Freds, there was a time I was repeatedly requesting information and did not get it.

 

So, I did not have the up to date final statements for the Credit Card account.

 

What I've found is that

1) they applied a Collections Fees of £60

this is after they were supposed to have put the account on hold

and not charged further fees or interest as I had received help from the CAB with this, and

 

 

2) it shows that I was given a refund of interest bringing the total down by just under £60,

BUT, the total passed on to Fredricksons did not include this refund at all but was the amount with the Collections Fees.

 

Had I been given that information back in 2009, I could have contested the debt.

Not a lot of money in the great scheme of things, but still more evidence of mishandling (to be polite).

 

I will have to rest now because I'm shattered trying to sort this all out

but will try to do more investigations later because I want to know just how much I've missed and been misled by.

[ismylife]

Every SAR contains a narrative, a goldmine of information

 

I think the results of my SAR are not so much a goldmine, but rather a vast empty hole of what is NOT there, which is proving to be rather interesting in it's own way as I'm finding the discrepancies.

[intend]

Hi, think you have hit the nail on the head - it is what is missing that is the most important information. If the COOP can't provide you with the info then the DCA is just willie-waving - ignore them and they will go away.

 

Concentrate on getting your benefits in order - us ethis site, and more importantly get back to enjoying your life.

 

Good luck, Intend

[ismylife]

Just a wee update.

 

Whilst i know that I can ignore these eejits until or unless they can provide the relevant paperwork,

this is not a comfortable situation for me because I feel at risk,

especially since I have now learnt I am facing at least two major operations and long-term recovery which is going to cover the better part of next year.

 

So, I gave them over 2 months to get back in touch with me as they stated they would over a number of issues,

not just whether they could come up with the paperwork and listed all the errors and what really comes under the heading of 'misconduct'

over my accounts and have requested a copy of the Deed of Assignment to ensure this was correctly conducted.

 

The response is a template letter pointing out the obvious

"... we have not been able to provide you with the requested information in the relevant time period"

No mention of the extra information I requested.

 

They say they will continue to request the information from the original lender and my account shall remain on hold with the Customer Care Department

, and that my credit agreement is currently unenforceable,

however I am still obliged to repay the outstanding balance.

 

Now - this is just for the credit card account - no mention at all of the original loan accoun

t which the Co-op turned into an overdraft back in 2009 without my agreement or explaining what they were doing and why and how that would affect me.

 

I know what my next steps will be with all of this in terms of their mishandling from the start and repeated failures,

but at the moment, I just have that one question about the Loan Account / overdraft.

 

Where do I stand with this as Cabot said they do not have to provide the paperwork for an overdraft on a current account?

[Conniff]

One thing is certain ismylife, if someone is claiming money off you, it matters not where or what it is, they will have to prove that a debt exists and the amount.

[ismylife]

Well, they're not getting any agreement from me to pay so much as a penny.

 

But is it something about current accounts that put them outside CCA requests?