Tradesman broke window, seeking advice

[wtlh]

Hi all,

 

I hope I have posted in the correct forum. I am seeking advice on behalf of my dad, who lives in Edinburgh.

 

Yesterday afternoon, when he tried to open one of the kitchen windows---PVC double glazing may be about 20 years old---he heard a mechanical crack and the top panel could no longer be pulled up and close.

 

He called the insurance company, but was told that it would be considered as normal wear-and-tear, given the age of the window, and they won't cover the damage. He then called a local double glazing company to come and have a look, and a chap came and upon (according to my dad) a very brief examination said that the spring had snapped. He said that he cannot replace the springs on the day as it is a two men job, but will be able to close the window for my dad by removing the springs, and he can come back the next day to replace the springs.

 

According to my dad, the tradesman then used what appears to be quite a lot of brute force to dislodge and break up the springs. At that time my dad was a bit worried that he might damage the frame, but did not say anything as he is no expert. Anyway, after some effort, the springs were broken into several pieces and removed, and the guy lifted the window up and tried to lock the panel up. However, may be due to age, the lock does not seem to be working fully, but he managed to get the panel locked in position---for the moment. Shortly after he came down the window panel crashed down too. This completely destroyed the frame and the panel. A new window is now required.

 

The guy then said that he won't be charging the call out fee (90 pounds), but will charge another 60 pounds if he is asked to board up the window. Obviously my dad was quite upset, and did not want him to do more work. He also told my dad to call home building insurance as they should cover the damage, and then left. My dad called his insurance company again, but was told that they won't cover any damaged caused by workmen, and it should be the workmen's insurance who pays for the damage.

 

Today, my dad called the guy again explaining the situation, but it appeared that the guy was trying to deny responsibility---claiming the window is old, and that my dad had forced him to do a two-men's job (which is completely untrue). In the end, he said that he is going to call his boss, and the boss will call back in a few days. They seem to be a very small company, with a rudimentary website.

 

My dad has already called for an emergency repair from another company, and they managed to lift the broken panel up again, and temporally lodged it in place. But the window no longer seals, and wind blows in easily. My dad is anxious to get the window replaced as soon as possible, but is unsure if he will be able to get any money back without prior agreement with the trader's insurance company. And he is also unsure what to do if the company starts to play avoids contact, pass on the blame etc.

 

I have advised him to instead of calling the company, write to them and keep all the paper records of correspondence from now on. And I would really appreciate any advice from fellow CAGers on what is the best way of dealing with this case, and if my dad would be able to get at least some compensation. He is happy to pay for the cost of a spring change, but replacing the entire window is totally unexpected, and of course a lot more expensive.

 

Thank you very much for your help in advance. Any suggestions are welcome.

 

WTLH

[stu007]

Hi

 

Please be patient I am sure others will be along to give you advice.

 

You are correct he needs to keep a good paper trail so everything in writing, keep copies (get free proof of posting from the post office).

 

Did the emergency repair company give him a report on the window?

[wtlh]

Hi

 

Please be patient I am sure others will be along to give you advice.

 

You are correct he needs to keep a good paper trail so everything in writing, keep copies (get free proof of posting from the post office).

 

Did the emergency repair company give him a report on the window?

 

Hi stu007,

 

Thank you for your prompt reply.

 

The emergency repair people had taken photos and done a report on their internal system. I will ask my dad to contact them and get a copy of the report himself. The emergency repair company is associated with his insurance company.

[stu007]

Has he paid anything to the initial company (is so how did they pay?) or is he waiting on an invoice from this company?

 

You can name them here if you want.

 

If you dont want to you can check there website to see if they are a member of a trade association, do an internet search for reviews of the company to see what they say

[Mr.P]

The emergency repair company is associated with his insurance company.

 

Does this insurance company also provide legal cover ?

 

I suspect it may end in your father having to issue a county court claim if the company is trying to dodge accepting responsibility.

[i hate bailiffs]

Any of these company's that charge a call out fee you need to be careful with

What is wrong with a local builder / property maintenance

Will be a far cheaper job

 

The only real way to get the first company to pay will be either the threat of court action

Or court action

[Conniff]

Can you name the company or better, tell us the website please wtlh ?

[wtlh]

Hi all,

 

Thank you all for your kind suggestions.

 

My father has checked, but it seems that his insurance won't cover legal fees. He hasn't had a single claim with the same company for over 15 years, and the only time that he may need his insurance it turned out to be useless. The funny thing is, the emergency repairman who was associated with the insurance company told my dad that he should be able to claim the damage, but the insurance company dismissed it saying the guy had no authority, and even asked my dad for the workman's name, to warn/punish him for speaking to customers about matters of insurance.... My dad declined to name him, as he was a really nice guy! Anyway, I think may be it is also the time for my dad to change his insurance company.

 

On my dad paying the (first) company who damaged the window. No, he did not pay them anything, as the guy said that he wouldn't charge the call out fee after the window panel crashed down. So this is also a potential complication, I think, as technically my dad hasn't paid for their service. There was no contract, only some text messages confirming that the guy was coming to the house to have a look.

 

I think court action would be the worst case scenario for my dad. County court would be too expensive I guess, and too much time and effort. In the end, what you get out of compensation may not even cover the legal fees. The company may very well choose to settle out of the court, but if we have already hired a solicitor, his fees would probably have paid the window anyway. I think if the worst comes, and they wanted to kick the ball away and deny any responsibility, then the small claims court may be the way to go, but I guess we need to make sure that we have a leg to stand on first.

 

I am still hopeful that the boss of the company will call in the next couple of days, and sort out the problem with his insurance. If he is insured, then isn't this the purpose of the insurance in the first place? Therefore, I will give them the benefit of the doubt at the moment, and wait for a few days. If they are playing the blame game, or simply not responding, then I will post their company name and website here. In any case, however, I have told my dad to prepare for the worst.

[wtlh]

In terms of repairs and claiming it back, from your experiences, would the other party's insurance company reimburse the window replacement cost afterwards if my dad went on and replaced the window without their prior consent?

 

Both the guy who broke the window and the emergency repairman said the window is now a total loss, and needs to be replaced---I guess the emergency repairman will have it in his report as well. And given this is a quite urgent matter: 1) currently wind and rain can get in; 2) it is simply not safe to have that broken panel still with its heavy glass lodged up there, my dad really wants to replace the window asap. with or without reply from the first company.

[Conniff]

It's not going to be an overnight fix, you first need to write to the company that caused the damage with 3 estimates of the cost to repair/replace the window. How they answer will determin your next move.

 

If there is no help forthcoming, you will have to pay for the repairs/replacement and then bill them for that amount saying failure to pay will mean further action being taken.

 

It's hard to help without knowing the status of the company ie is it a one man band, a Ltd company or Plc etc ???

[Mr.P]

I think court action would be the worst case scenario for my dad. County court would be too expensive I guess, and too much time and effort. In the end, what you get out of compensation may not even cover the legal fees.

 

See: https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/court-fees

 

A window is unlikely to be more than £1,000, so the initial court fee would be £80 at most. You would be able to reclaim the fees and reasonable costs from the company that broke the window.

 

I used the small claims court process myself a few years back and the company settled in full before it needed a court appearance. Much of the time, the court papers turning up in the post is sufficient to focus attention on resolving the claim quickly.

[wtlh]

It's not going to be an overnight fix, you first need to write to the company that caused the damage with 3 estimates of the cost to repair/replace the window. How they answer will determin your next move.

 

If there is no help forthcoming, you will have to pay for the repairs/replacement and then bill them for that amount saying failure to pay will mean further action being taken.

 

It's hard to help without knowing the status of the company ie is it a one man band, a Ltd company or Plc etc ???

 

I have done some checks online about the company, and there is not much information about them. There are a couple of 5 star ratings on Yell, and they claim that they have over 30 years of experience in the double glazing business. On companycheck.co.uk, however, the company with the same name and a very similar address seemed to be a LTD company with private shareholders that was dissolved in 1992... May be someone else took over the business and restarted it, I don't know.

 

The few 5 star ratings and the claim that they have been in the business for 30 years may be encouraging (although, a company of the same name seemed to have dissolved in 1992?), as they seem to care about their reputation and is in there for the long haul.

 

My dad had a few quotes already, and he is going write a letter to the company this evening. In the mean while, he is planning to call the company one more time, over their land line, and to ask to speak to the manager directly. In his previous contacts with the company, he always called the mobile phone of the workman, and the fact that the workman said that his boss will reply may be the NEXT week, when it was only Monday, could point to a possibility of him not willing to inform the company about what has happened. Of course, the boss could simply be on holiday. Anyway, I guess it doesn't hurt to try to talk to the manager directly.

[wtlh]

See: https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/court-fees

 

A window is unlikely to be more than £1,000, so the initial court fee would be £80 at most. You would be able to reclaim the fees and reasonable costs from the company that broke the window.

 

I used the small claims court process myself a few years back and the company settled in full before it needed a court appearance. Much of the time, the court papers turning up in the post is sufficient to focus attention on resolving the claim quickly.

 

 

This is encouraging to hear. Yeah, the few quotes my dad received are around 1000--1200 mark. It is a Georgian house and the window are quite large, and the broken one is the largest in the house.

[Conniff]

As Mr P has said, you are way within the small claims so it won't cost much to get going, you claim back that fee anyway.

 

If you don't want to say who the company is on here, can you pm me with it or the web address ??

[wtlh]

As Mr P has said, you are way within the small claims so it won't cost much to get going, you claim back that fee anyway.

 

If you don't want to say who the company is on here, can you pm me with it or the web address ??

 

 

PM sent

[wtlh]

Okay, my dad just called. He had phoned the company, and a receptionist answered the call. Basically, he was told that they knew nothing of the incident, and the workman never told them. The receptionist had noted my dad's number, and said that she will inform the manager and they will be in contact later.

 

Fingers crossed.

[wtlh]

Okay, after several email correspondences with my dad, the company appeared to deny responsibility all together: the emails exchanges will be posted in the following posts.

[wtlh]

My dad's initial email to them:

 

 

Dear Manager,

 

I am putting in writing a record of my phone conversation with your office staff at 1:43 this afternoon, and to supply more detailed information.

 

This is in relation to the work done by one of your engineers to my kitchen window last Saturday afternoon 8th August 2015. I phoned your office number early that afternoon to request help with securing the upper half of my double glazed sash window which got stuck because of a mechanical problem. Your engineer arrived at about 3:00pm. He advised that it must be due to a snapped spring, and that the repair work couldn't be done at weekend. He could only help secure the window which was just what I needed. He succeeded in pushing the window to the top and secured it, but it dropped down almost instantly, causing serious damage to the frame of that window piece. He tried to lift it up but without success. The upper part of my window was now left completely open. He offered to provide boarding at £60. I was left dumbfounded and refused. I was not charged anything for obvious reasons. Before leaving, he suggested that I contact my insurer, which I did the first thing on Monday morning. However, my insurer told me that they couldn't cover this which should be the responsibility of the trader or the trader's insurer because their work went wrong and caused the damage.

 

After consulting various sources, I firmly believe that my insurer is correct and that you should assume your responsibility for replacing my damaged window.

 

Thank you very much for your attention. I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience.

 

With kind regards,

 

Yours sincerely,

 

[wtlh]

Then, the reply from JXXXX of the company:

 

Dear XXXXXX,

 

Thank you for your email.

 

I have spoken to the joiner who attended your emergency on Saturday 8th August.

 

He has made me aware that when you phoned and explained your problem he told you at the time that the job required 2 men but you were insistent that he come and help you. He made you aware that any damage incurred would be at your own risk as he had told you the job required 2 men beforehand, therefore the responsibility for replacing your damaged window is with yourself.

 

The joiner tried his best to help you but unfortunately due to the windows age and condition was unable to do so.

 

Kind Regards

 

JXXXXX

[wtlh]

My dad's reply:

 

Dear JXXXX,

 

Thank you for your quick reply.

 

When I called for help, we didn't discuss the details of the work at all as I only request help with my window problem. When the joiner arrived, he advised that it must be due to a snapped spring. He did say that it was not possible to remove the windows and replace the spring on Saturday because it required two men. But he said he could only help secure my window to prevent rain coming in, for which work he would charge me £90. I agreed to the job. Therefore what he did was just to secure my window, but not to carry out the full repair which was a two men job. He never said that to secure my window such as pushing the window up or board it required two people! As a matter of fact, after he left, my insurer sent one person to do exactly the same and managed to lock the upper part of the window properly which your joiner didn't do and caused the damage.

 

In short, he made it very clear to me that to make a full repair would need two people which he wasn't able to do and didn't do. How could it be possible for me to insist on full repair on Saturday when there spring parts would still take time to be ordered! However, he said he could secure the window by himself and I agreed to the job. The accidental damage was entirely due to his carelessness, to his failure to pull the lock into place proper and let it go.

 

I am shocked by his dishonesty and the lack of professional conduct. I hope you could see into this and fulfil your company's responsibility. I am not going to let unfair dealing go away easily.

 

With kind regards,

 

XXXXXXX

[wtlh]

And immediately afterwards my dad has sent another:

 

Dear JXXXXXX,

 

I just want to emphasise that a workman sent by my insurer was able to secure my window by applying the same lock which your joiner failed to do. This fact speaks for itself.

 

Thanks,

 

XXXXXXXX

[wtlh]

And this is their reply:

 

Dear XXXXXXX,

 

Our joiner has said that he made you aware at the time that the secure would take two men but you were insistent on him coming to help you anyway. We do this type of work all the time and he was aware of the type of windows you have and the problems they can cause therefore knew it would be a two man job to secure the window but you were pleading with him for help so he came to help you and did his best to secure.

 

We have contacted our insurance company and they will not cover this as you were made aware that the secure would need two men but you insisted on our help anyway therefore the responsibility is with yourself.

 

We have been in this business for nearly 30 years and are a very honest and well established company, it is not in our best interests to be dishonest or unprofessional in any way. Our workmen are very honest and would take responsibility if they thought it was right to do so but on this occasion they feel they did there best to help but unfortunately due to the age and condition of the window were the problem and not his work.

 

I look forward to hearing from you on how you would like to proceed.

 

Kind Regards

 

JXXXX

[ericsbrother]

The tradesman will have liability insurance so it will result in a claim form them (eventually) In the meanwhile your dad should tell his insurer that he would expect them to take the matter up and then reclaim the money from the company or their insurers. get him to request any refusal to do anything in writing so he may show that to the insurance ombudsman. Even the mention of the IO is normally enough to make them reconsider if it is something that could be covered so putting it in writing will be against their normal instincts and will probably result in further activity.

likewise, when the company pits their refusal to accept libility in writing then he should send them a letter before action to give them a certain time to make good or he will use the courts to recover the losses that have resulted from their actions/negligence. They will then have something to show their insurers, who will probably send a loss adjuster round to consider a ( less than generous) offer

[wtlh]

It looks like they are going to stick by their guns. What are suggested course of action?

 

I also searched company house, and could not find any information about this company. It is unclear if they are a member of any associations. Is there an Ombudsman on this sort of things?

 

In terms of their claim that my dad "insisted" them to carry out the work, which is completely ridiculous, how should we disprove them? It looks like their words against ours. As my dad had already pointed out: the workman initially stated that replacing the spring is a two man job, NOT on temporary lifting up the window panel. Also, the emergency repair person also carried out the SAME work successfully BY HIMSELF, and did not even mention it being a two person job.

 

If we are going to go to court, what sort of evidences will the court be looking for?

 

Any advices would be really welcome and appreciated

[wtlh]

The tradesman will have liability insurance so it will result in a claim form them (eventually) In the meanwhile your dad should tell his insurer that he would expect them to take the matter up and then reclaim the money from the company or their insurers. get him to request any refusal to do anything in writing so he may show that to the insurance ombudsman. Even the mention of the IO is normally enough to make them reconsider if it is something that could be covered so putting it in writing will be against their normal instincts and will probably result in further activity.

likewise, when the company pits their refusal to accept libility in writing then he should send them a letter before action to give them a certain time to make good or he will use the courts to recover the losses that have resulted from their actions/negligence. They will then have something to show their insurers, who will probably send a loss adjuster round to consider a ( less than generous) offer

 

 

Thank you ericbrother for the suggestions. I have already forwarded them to my dad.

 

BTW, this was the last email my dad had send to them:

 

Dear JXXXX,

 

Thank you for your quick follow up.

 

It baggers belief that your joiner could say that he knew for sure what the problem was and what work was required even before coming to look at the problem, and that he told me before coming that he couldn't do the job by himself but came anyway because I insisted. None of this is true. Also, how could a professional workman take the risk because of a customer's insistence? The fact is that when he came and looked at the problem, he thought one of the springs had snapped, and advised me that, at that point, that it was a two-men job. However, he could help close my window and for that service he would charge me £90. I simply agreed. He did manage to close the window. The incident happened because he didn't lock it properly. I am presenting to you these facts with a clear conscience.

 

I agree that your joiner did want to provide the service. He had no intention to ruin the work. But sometimes work can indeed go wrong despite all the good intentions. When an unfortunate incident like this happened, the best approach is for us both to be honest and accept our own responsibilities. I phoned you on Saturday to seek urgent professional help with my stuck window, and you agreed to provide that help with a charge. I did nothing less and nothing more. As a professional, you have the best judgement, and even if a customer asks you to do something unreasonable and risky, you wouldn't be forced to do that. This is common sense. I neither asked him to do a job reluctantly, nor could I force him to do so. It was just a simple incident of working going wrong. I don't mean your joiner is a dishonest man or a poor workman, but he was being careless on that day, and now is being dishonest by saying I forced him to come.

 

I got to know your company on the internet and decided to approach you for help since you are so close to my home. Your joiner did respond and come very quickly, which I did appreciate and still do. But work going wrong is a different matter. I am not an unreasonable man. But anyone in my situation would find it hard to accept the fact that the workman or his company could totally shy away from any responsibility when work happened to go wrong. I would have to use all the fair options available to me.

 

With kind regards,

 

XXXXXXX