@morrisons Euro Car Parks/DP+ - Morrisons Crawley - parking over alleged time

[Ellora]

Hi,

 

I'm new to this site. I hope you can advice me a little. I received a parking charge notice that I think is unfair. I will lay out some of the background details to help understand the issue. Please let me know if more information is needed.

 

1. Morrisons opened in June 2014 in a multi storey complex, part morrisons and part travellodge. The car park is managed by Euro Car Parks.

 

2. Initially Morrisons offered around 3 hours free parking. Before parking there, we checked with Morrisons staff this was correct and read the signs put up by Euro Car Parks. They were scattered randomly and not particulary large. The signs at the time were vague and stated Morrisons customers could park for a period of time, the actual number of hours was left blank at the time.

 

3. With this knowledge, we have been parking there on and off there without re-reading the signs any further. We do not stay over three hours.

 

3. In early June I overheard some other customers mention that Morrisons had changed their parking times. I then went to read the ECP notice and it looked very similar apart from now the blank was filled in with a two hour limit. It was a very small ammendement, and I saw no other notices, no large notification of change of policy or change of parking times, when entering the car park, or or at the pedestrian exit doors, or inside morrisons. i immediately reduced my parking times to comply.

 

4. In June 15, a "notice to keeper letter" letter was sent to my address stating I had parked longer than the maximum period and parking charge was £85 as I hadn't paid in time. The date of alleged infringement was 16 May. The notice was from Euro Car parks. I believe this is the first letter they sent me. I was away from home and did not see it until early July. Looking at other websites the info was to ignore it. I also was very annoyed and thought it was unfair as there was no notification of changes of policy that I had read entering the car park or the shop.

 

5. At the beginning of August I got a call from my family home saying they received a letter from Debt Recovery plus. The letter is quite threatening but carefully worded. It states they are acting for the creditor to recover an unpaid debt. They said they as there was no response from the registered keeper address they have used other means to trace my current address - i.e. family home.

 

6. As I don't want my family to be tainted with this issue, earlier this morning I sent an appeal to Euro Car Parks directly. I used my registered keeper address. I did not divulge who the driver is, but requested they cancel the charge as there change of policy was not clearly stated. I have not contacted Debt recovery plus nor made any mention of them to Europarks.

 

7. The notice to keeper stated the breach being "Your vehicle was parked longer than the maximum period allowed". It does not state what that time was, nor does it provide any other evidence of the breach. I have asked they send me some evedence that my car was there on May 15.

 

I would like to know what I should be doing from now on.

 

a. Do you think that the situation is unfair?

 

b. Do I have a case to appeal to anyone further?

 

c. Does appealing to supermarkets to cancel the charge work? I do shop at Morrisons but small amounts - is there a price limit before they revoke parking charges?

 

d. What other information can Debt Recovery plus actually use to try and trace me further - is this legal....and is it common?

 

e. To what extent do private car parking websites look at websites like this, and take further action based upon comments here. I think i will be fairly traceable from the detailed background. In this case can the thread be private until the case is closed? - I am new here remember!

 

f. In addition, I would like to know if the policy is changed by the parking authority what effort should the parking authority make to ensure customers are aware of the changes. I have a sneaky feeling they may say we put a sign up a week before...............but If i was not at the car park that week how would I know.

 

 

All advice is greatly appreciated.

[dx100uk]

can I just check

its you that have used the word 'fine'

and its not mentioned on any paperwork or signs?

 

 

its ofcourse NOT a fine - its a speculative invoice.

 

 

I think you next move is to await the POPLA code.

 

 

dx

[Ellora]

Hi DX

 

To clarify, ECP call it a "notice amount"

[JoeyJoeC]

Did they send you a POPLA code with their appeal rejection?

[judasz]

hi

i had a same situation outside MC Donald on Gatwick airport, this is only a private company and they can do nothing!

 

what i did i open a case with popla and i send them this.

 

works on first occasion , penalty cancel after two weeks.

 

this is letter i send to them, have look if will be good for you.

 

please note where i say name of company you have to place name of parking company witch issued your ticket.

and double check all details and amounts of money.

 

removed - dx

[Conifers12]

Hi,

 

I'm new to this site. I hope you can advice me a little. I received a parking charge notice that I think is unfair. I will lay out some of the background details to help understand the issue. Please let me know if more information is needed.

 

1. Morrisons opened in June 2014 in a multi storey complex, part morrisons and part travellodge. The car park is managed by Euro Car Parks.

 

2. Initially Morrisons offered around 3 hours free parking. Before parking there, we checked with Morrisons staff this was correct and read the signs put up by Euro Car Parks. They were scattered randomly and not particulary large. The signs at the time were vague and stated Morrisons customers could park for a period of time, the actual number of hours was left blank at the time.

 

3. With this knowledge, we have been parking there on and off there without re-reading the signs any further. We do not stay over three hours.

 

3. In early June I overheard some other customers mention that Morrisons had changed their parking times. I then went to read the ECP notice and it looked very similar apart from now the blank was filled in with a two hour limit. It was a very small ammendement, and I saw no other notices, no large notification of change of policy or change of parking times, when entering the car park, or or at the pedestrian exit doors, or inside morrisons. i immediately reduced my parking times to comply.

 

4. In June 15, a "notice to keeper letter" letter was sent to my address stating I had parked longer than the maximum period and parking charge was £85 as I hadn't paid in time. The date of alleged infringement was 16 May. The notice was from Euro Car parks. I believe this is the first letter they sent me. I was away from home and did not see it until early July. Looking at other websites the info was to ignore it. I also was very annoyed and thought it was unfair as there was no notification of changes of policy that I had read entering the car park or the shop.

 

5. At the beginning of August I got a call from my family home saying they received a letter from Debt Recovery plus. The letter is quite threatening but carefully worded. It states they are acting for the creditor to recover an unpaid debt. They said they as there was no response from the registered keeper address they have used other means to trace my current address - i.e. family home.

 

6. As I don't want my family to be tainted with this issue, earlier this morning I sent an appeal to Euro Car Parks directly. I used my registered keeper address. I did not divulge who the driver is, but requested they cancel the charge as there change of policy was not clearly stated. I have not contacted Debt recovery plus nor made any mention of them to Europarks.

 

7. The notice to keeper stated the breach being "Your vehicle was parked longer than the maximum period allowed". It does not state what that time was, nor does it provide any other evidence of the breach. I have asked they send me some evedence that my car was there on May 15.

 

I would like to know what I should be doing from now on.

 

a. Do you think that the situation is unfair?

 

b. Do I have a case to appeal to anyone further?

 

c. Does appealing to supermarkets to cancel the charge work? I do shop at Morrisons but small amounts - is there a price limit before they revoke parking charges?

 

d. What other information can Debt Recovery plus actually use to try and trace me further - is this legal....and is it common?

 

e. To what extent do private car parking websites look at websites like this, and take further action based upon comments here. I think i will be fairly traceable from the detailed background. In this case can the thread be private until the case is closed? - I am new here remember!

 

f. In addition, I would like to know if the policy is changed by the parking authority what effort should the parking authority make to ensure customers are aware of the changes. I have a sneaky feeling they may say we put a sign up a week before...............but If i was not at the car park that week how would I know.

 

 

All advice is greatly appreciated.

 

I have had the same thing happen to me on 6th July, because you don't have to get a ticket, I knew it was 3 hours. Had not seen new signs saying 2 hours. I have appealed but they now want proof that I used the facilities by way of a receipt or bank statement. Although I used the restaurant and did some shopping I paid cash and by the time I got the letter had got rid of the receipts. So now feel I have to pay the fine, am so annoyed as don't feel this was my fault. You can't open a store and say 3 hours free parking and then change it to 2 hours without having big signs showing this.

[ericsbrother]

Tell them that you will use it as part of your evidence when the matter goes to POPLA. YOu dont have to pay them anything and the signage is usually meaningless as there will most likely be 3 hours allowed by the Planning Permission.

People shopuld read the other threads before they post and then they will understand what you need to know and say before appealing to these bandits.

As for DR+ they have no rights or claims whatsoever so dont waste a stamp on them.

[Ellora]

Thanks for your responses;

 

Judasz :- that's a very good letter, I am certainly going to use this as a template if my POPLA comes through.

 

Conifers 12 :- Can you please confirm; did you appeal to the supermarket, or Euro Car Parks? Who asked for your proof of shopping?

 

EricsBrother: - Thanks for information on planning permission, I think that is valid and I will put into the letter. Also, I completely agree with your comments about DR+. What annoys and worries me a little is that on top of DVLA information which they are allowed to acquire, they seem to have used other means of tracing me electronically to an address I used to reside in over 25 years ago. Is this legal? I admit I have had a look at some of the threads, but not all of them; but haven't come across this issue on any of the threads I have read.

 

Thanks all; I will keep you updated.

 

E

[ericsbrother]

tracing to an old address- you cannot change the past but if they are wrong and sending post there then that is worth a complaint to the ICO for improper processing of your personal data as they clearly have proof of address as supplied to the DVLA and this is the only address they should send things to regarding the KEEPER of the vehicle.

[Ellora]

Thanks again Erics brother. I have a particularly unusual name and I think they have used that to their advantage searching through other non DVLA databases.

 

I will deal with the parking ticket first then have a look at the ICO complaints.

 

Will keep you updated on the progress.

[crawleymum]

You can't keep using the excuse I didn't know it was only 2 hours because it changed, it was in the local press back in March, both on-line and in print.

I can't post links but if you Google "Morrisons reduces time you can park in High Street car park for free" the Crawley News story will appear dated March 26th

[havinastella]

You can't keep using the excuse I didn't know it was only 2 hours because it changed, it was in the local press back in March, both on-line and in print.

I can't post links but if you Google "Morrisons reduces time you can park in High Street car park for free" the Crawley News story will appear dated March 26th

 

So what are you saying?

 

If it's free. it's free!!

[ericsbrother]

Does a newspaper article change the planning consent?

[Ellora]

Hi EricsBrother,

 

I've had a development. I have received an email response from EuroParks. They are rejecting my appeal and passing me onto their DR+. I am attaching the email response from them. I hope that I have anonymised this enough.

 

............................................................................

Good Afternoon,

 

Further to your email regarding parking charge notice (PCN) xxxxxxxx, please see the schedule of events relating to the PCN below:

 

Please find attached date and time stamped images of the full vehicle entering the car park at 15:29 and exiting at 18:28 - a total of 2 hours and 59 minutes.

 

Please be advised that the signage on site clearly states there is a 2 hour maximum stay (please see attached image of signage)

 

As this has been exceeded by 59 minutes, a parking charge notice was issued.

 

16/05/2015: the PCN was issued.

15/06/2015: as you are aware the 'notice to keeper' (NTK) letter was sent out, reminding you of the outstanding parking charge notice.

20/07/2015: the parking charge notice was passed on to a third party debt collection agency 'Debt Recovery Plus Ltd'

 

Please find attached copies of the PCN and NTK

 

Euro Car Parks accept no responsibility for individuals failing to receive their letters. Letters are sent to the registered keeper's address which is supplied via an electronic link directly from the DVLA. It is prudent to ensure that the DVLA are advised of any change of address. Please also be advised that there are options to manage your mail, such as setting up a forwarding service, if individuals are moving or relocating permanently or temporarily to ensure that important letters are not missed.

 

Euro Car Parks Ltd have follow the correct procedures. As the notice currently resides with Debt Recovery, Euro Car Parks will not enter into any further correspondence regarding these PCNs, thus any further correspondence regarding the notice should be directed to Debt Recovery. As the notice reside with Debt Recovery, payment to Debt Recovery Plus is now advisable.

 

................................................................................

 

 

The letter from DR+ clearly states that they are working for the creditor, so the information sent to me from the two firms is conflicting.

 

In addition to this, EuroParks have sent me a copy of the signage, which I will clearly tell you did not exist in either May, or even June. The sign that I read in June was a white sign, not a green one.

 

Can you please advise if I can write to POPLA directly and ask for an appeal myself. I feel there is strong evidence of improper practices occurring. Incidentally isn't it interesting that the person who gave a quote to a newspaper article, made the effort to join your site and send us details of the alleged correctness of the parking authority. That was her very first post.

 

Look forward to your advice.

[ericsbrother]

DR+ are nothing. ignore them and when you have done that ignore them some more. Read all about them here, every thread that mentions them says the same thing. They have no more rights than my cat.

If they havent provided a POLA code then they cant take you to court. They have 35 days to do so, dont remind them.

Basically they are hoping you pay up rather than asking them tricky questions like do they have a right to make a claim form you in their own name and does the planning permission allow them to decide that parking is limited to 2 hours. Does their signage have planning permission in the first place?

[Ellora]

Thanks Again.

 

Will let you know if the POPLA comes through.

 

In the mean time, I think I might do some more investigating on the amendment to the planning application that Europarks made to the council. I know that Crawley Council are worried about droppage of people using town centres thanks to internet shopping, so I can't see them readily agreeing to this.

[Ellora]

Hello Again,

 

 

I have just been having a look at the POPLA site. Could you please confirm, can NTK issuer reject an appeal and refuse to provide a POPLA number if the appeal has been made after 28 days of issuing the notice? In that case can I open a POPLA complaint of my own, or will that too be rejected?

 

What happens after that? Do they then choose to proceed to take this to court?

 

Sorry for bombarding you with basic questions, but I am getting confused.

 

Thanks

 

E

[themagician]

it's neither a FINE or a PENALTY! 2 hrs or 3 don't matter,gpol will win every time.

[renegadeimp]

They will not take this to court. They know better than to do that. There is absolutely no chance of them winning a claim based on you overstaying in a supermarket car park because you were shopping/using their cafe etc. Couple all that with GPEOL, and the fact they dont actually own the land, and most morrisons stores dont even have planning permission for ticketing carp parks...

[ericsbrother]

Can they refuse an appeal? Yes they can but if they then try to take you to court all you have to say is that you were refused access to the alternative disputes resolution used by the ATA and that you request the claim be struck out and sent back to POPLA to consider. No judge likes having court time wasted when there is a cheaper and easier alternative so the parking co would be told to go back to square one. There is a case that did go to court and this is what happened so it is not just theory.

[bosun69]

It's not for the Crawley Morrisons, but it is a Euro Car Parks run car park elsewhere and for what its worth, I now have a nice little collection of letters from DRP, (four or even five maybe, I've lost count) each one offering a new deadline for payment and threatening to refer to their client for court action if I don't pay.

 

 

I'm almost inclined to write back and tell them I wish their client would get on and take me to court, but as previously advised, I'm not going to wasting a stamp on them. (mind, I could send it without a stamp !).

[Ellora]

Ericsbrother and Renegade Ink, thanks for the moral support and good advice.

 

I have to admit I got a bee in my bonnet about this over the weekend, as the email ECP sent to me is full of rubbish. It is beginning to infuriate me that these parking firms can blatantly extort money out of people and not provide any benefit to society.

 

So after Erics brothers heads up on the stipulations the council would have set out to grant planning permission, I delved through the application the developer made and there was a large section on parking. I found at least four areas that ECP have contravened the planning permission on top of issues I have previously mentioned.

 

So, if it does go to court, I am ready to present these along with written and photographic evidence.

 

Feeling a tad more comfortable about the situation now.

 

I urge anyone else in the same position as me to start delving into legality and stipulations allowing them to print money ....sorry invoices for parking. You are likely to find that they brush these under the car park ......sorry carpet , when it suits them.

[havinastella]

I wonder if you use the new Turtle Bay resturant, or even the bar in the new Travelodge and overstay, you will get ticketed.

 

I have nothing to do next weekend, except stay out and drink, so may go to Morrisons, buy my shopping, eat at the resturant, go downstairs to Turtle Bay for a cocktail, have a KFC, have another drink in the Travelodge and finish up with a Troy's BBQ kebab.

 

Lets see if I can get a ticket!

[ericsbrother]

good on you for doing your research. It does pay. I clobbered PE over the Planning Permission at an Aldi and as the land was a separate freehold to the store they got a big bill from the business rates people... I believe that they then backpeddalled on their claim to manage the site and applied for PP for the signage. The council made them take all of the existing structures down and replace them with ones they liked and this bumped up the free parking period from 1 hr to 1.5 hrs.

It would have need cheaper to just cancel my wife's ticket and keep their big mouths shut but no, they are greedy.

[Ellora]

haha Havinastella,

 

 

You are very brave to tempt fate, perhaps I might join you, in fact everyone who recently got a ticket there could join.....we could get some bits and bobs for the Morrissons and have a barbie in the car park. No signage to say they will charge us for that!