PHoenix Bailiff and Council Parking Ticket advice needed

[Printedsquare]

I would like some reliable advice on my current bailiff situation.

 

A bailiff recently turned up at my parents home, I own the house, they are tenants, with a tenancy agreement.

 

 

The bailiff refused to acknowledge this and gained entry by placing a foot in the door and pushing my elderly father aside.

He then took an inventory of their belongings and bullied my father into singing the inventory.

 

 

During this time I spoke to the bailiff on the phone, advised him I was unaware of the money owed, was happy to pay and did not live at that address.

 

Bailiff refused to acknowledge this and later returned to my parents home and threatened them with the police.

The bailiff did not, at anytime allow my parents to read the warrant,

behaved in a threatening manner throughout and were physically intimidating.

 

I contacted the police who advised my parents to call 999 if they returned,

contacted the bailiff company and attempted to explain it was not my dwelling, nor were my goods in the premises

and my parents were third party.

 

 

I have also had my father make an affidavit to that affect and spoken to the council.

 

 

According to the bailiff company the bailiff will return to my parents home tomorrow

and again attempted to gain access despite these steps.

 

 

Any advice welcome, many thanks

[caro]

I've made site team aware you need urgent help.

 

I'm not one of the knowledgeable ones on bailiff matters, but am surprised they refused payment from you.

Edited July 22, 2015 by caro

[Printedsquare]

Thank you

[Bailiff Advice]

 

A bailiff recently turned up at my parents home, I own the house, they are tenants, with a tenancy agreement. The bailiff refused to acknowledge this and gained entry by placing a foot in the door and pushing my elderly father aside. He then took an inventory of their belongings and bullied my father into singing the inventory. During this time I spoke to the bailiff on the phone, advised him I was unaware of the money owed, was happy to pay and did not live at that address.

 

Bailiff refused to acknowledge this and later returned to my parents home and threatened them with the police. The bailiff did not, at anytime allow my parents to read the warrant, behaved in a threatening manner throughout and were physically intimidating.

 

I contacted the police who advised my parents to call 999 if they returned, contacted the bailiff company and attempted to explain it was not my dwelling, nor were my goods in the premises and my parents were third party. I have also had my father make an affidavit to that affect and spoken to the council. According to the bailiff company the bailiff will return to my parents home tomorrow and again attempted to gain access despite these steps. Any advice welcome, many thanks

 

What debt is this in relation to?

 

How much was the enforcement agent wanting?

 

What goods are listed on the Controlled Goods Agreement?

 

When was the Controlled Goods Agreement signed?

 

You say that the bailiff returned to your your home at a later date. When was this?

[BankFodder]

Which bailiff company please

[Printedsquare]

Thank you for responding I'll give a more details now,sorry it's a bit long winded.

 

At 6.30am last Thursday 2 EAs from a company called Phoenix turned up at my parents house

looking for me to pay a parking ticket from last year.

 

 

My father who is 75 explained I don't live there and I'm their landlord.

He then phoned me and passed the phone to the agent

 

 

I explained the situation and said I can't make a payment immediately and that it's the first I'd heard after forgetting about the ticket.

He said the car is registered at that address and that's all that mattered and he had to take full payment now or seize goods.

 

 

I asked him to leave contact details and i'd sort something out once I had checked my finances,

he wasn't interested and passed the to my dad who said he'd get some details.

The EA then refused to accept what had been said and threatened to seize my parents goods.

 

 

My Dad asked if the larger of the 2 could wait in the van as he was being intimidated but would talk to the main man, this was refused.

My father tried to shut the door but the agent stuck his foot in the door and pushed it open.

 

 

My mother was frightened and long story short the EAs took a controlled goods agreement

and both men refused to leave until my father signed it.

 

 

He was not allowed to read the warrant and the only paperwork left was the goods agreement

stating they would return at 11 am for full payment or the goods.

We both phoned the police and were fobbed off.

 

 

I spoke to Phoenix and got a blunt response that the agreement was signed so that's it.

 

 

The agents returned at 12 and my father kept the door locked they would not leave until my father called 999

and the police called the EA to mediate, the agents left claiming they would be back with a different warrant a locksmith and the police.

 

I have had numerous calls with the council, Phoenix, debtline, county court and a meeting at my parents home with the police.

I got a copy of the warrant from the council, it is a warrant of control to use procedure set out in Schedule 12 TCE for £112 plus EA fees at a total of £422.

 

I have not refused to pay or contested the ticket.

 

The police are unhappy but on quick inspection claim its civil but they would be interested if I could make a case.

They have also written a report and will respond to a 999 call if the EAs return.

 

I am not anti bailiff and understand a job needs to be done

but find all this appalling and my father particularly is not coping very well.

 

 

I have checked the CIVEA code of conduct and the warrant and believe they bent or broke a numberguide/ stipulations

but as of now I can do nothing and my folks are in the middle on lock down.

 

Apologies at the length of this I could probably give details on what's happened all day. Any advice is appreciated

[Printedsquare]

What debt is this in relation to?

 

How much was the enforcement agent wanting?

 

What goods are listed on the Controlled Goods Agreement?

 

When was the Controlled Goods Agreement signed?

 

You say that the bailiff returned to your your home at a later date. When was this?

 

Hi I hope my above post answers your questions.

 

 

The good s listed are the entire contents of the house excluding essentials.

They have no receipts after 50 years of marriage.

 

 

The affidavit has been sent to Phoenix along with tenancy renewal agreement to prove the goods are not mine.

 

 

Phoenix claim the signed agreement nullifies that even though it's clear the agreement was signed under extreme and intimidating circumstances by a third party?

[brassnecked]

I think a Formal Complaint to the coiuncil CEO, elected leader and your local member is something to do anyway. BA, is there any mileage in Data Breach to ICO?

 

When given evidence that you are not rwsident the bailiff should have withdrawn notwithstanding a potential vulnerable situation with your elderly father.

[Printedsquare]

I think a Formal Complaint to the coiuncil CEO, elected leader and your local member is something to do anyway. BA, is there any mileage in Data Breach to ICO?

 

When given evidence that you are not rwsident the bailiff should have withdrawn notwithstanding a potential vulnerable situation with your elderly father.

 

That's my understanding but when it's been ignored what can i do? The complaints process takes time and in the meantime my parents are genuinely scared. Conversation with Phoenix and the council to take my parents out of the situation have been pointless and a common sense approach ignored.

[unclebulgaria67]

Think you may need to find a way to pay this and then to take whatever actions you can. What is the alternatve to this ? I am sure your parents could go to court to claim all the goods in their house and that they are third parties that have nothing to do with it. But i am sure nobody wants this hassle. Then the complaints will take longer.

 

If you cannot pay, you could allow the EA to visit where you are living to come to an arrangement. You can still complain about what happened before.

[Conniff]

Have you given them your address ?

[Peterbard]

I do not believe that the controled goods agreement is valid for a number f reasons. Firstly the goods are not the property of the debtor(section 10 taking controp of goods act

 

Although a third party can make an agreement it has to be only on instruction from the debtor section 14

 

The party to the agreement must be aware of the implications for making such an agreement.

 

Given this I would question the ea's ability to use this for forcible re entry.

 

In short do not let them in, if they threaten locksmiths then tell them to get on with it, state that you do not consent to their forced entry and they have no authority and shut the door.

 

The best remedy for this is to get your daughter to sort a repayment arrangement with them although I appreciate there stubbornness I believe that this must be pursued, complaint to the creditor at a senior level is also a good idea.

 

She should affirm that the address visited is not her usual place of residence nor is it her place of work so does not qualify in terms of section 14 of the act as usual place of residence.

 

I appreciate the stress this is putting you through and only hope this is resolved as quickly as possible for you.

[Printedsquare]

Have you given them your address ?

 

No and they have not asked for it. I assume that would cancel the warrant so they are hanging onto the control goods agreement at the address the car is registered at.

[Printedsquare]

I do not believe that the controled goods agreement is valid for a number f reasons. Firstly the goods are not the property of the debtor(section 10 taking controp of goods act

 

Although a third party can make an agreement it has to be only on instruction from the debtor section 14

 

The party to the agreement must be aware of the implications for making such an agreement.

 

Given this I would question the ea's ability to use this for forcible re entry.

 

In short do not let them in, if they threaten locksmiths then tell them to get on with it, state that you do not consent to their forced entry and they have no authority and shut the door.

 

The best remedy for this is to get your daughter to sort a repayment arrangement with them although I appreciate there stubbornness I believe that this must be pursued, complaint to the creditor at a senior level is also a good idea.

 

She should affirm that the address visited is not her usual place of residence nor is it her place of work so does not qualify in terms of section 14 of the act as usual place of residence.

 

I appreciate the stress this is putting you through and only hope this is resolved as quickly as possible for you.

 

Hi thanks for your response. I have already made clear I do not live at this address and when I tried to make an arrangement with Phoenix was told to pay in full as per the controlled goods agreement.

 

I agree with all your points above however I'm led to believe that they are all a civil matter and no crime has been committed even with manipulation of the warrant (in my eyes) I'm again trying to deal with the council to see sense.

[wonkeydonkey]

Your parents need to contact their ward councillor by telephone and express their fears and concerns to having bailiffs call for a parking ticket that has nothing to do with them.( IMO as elected officers they should be available up until 9pm) They have access to the hierarchy at the Council and the right to intervene on behalf of their constituents.

 

Once the immediate threat is under control you can take time to draw up a full formal complaint.

[brassnecked]

Your parents need to contact their ward councillor by telephone and express their fears and concerns to having bailiffs call for a parking ticket that has nothing to do with them.( IMO as elected officers they should be available up until 9pm) They have access to the hierarchy at the Council and the right to intervene on behalf of their constituents.

 

Once the immediate threat is under control you can take time to draw up a full formal complaint.

 

I concur with this, the local member can put pressure on the Finance Dept to put this on hold, tell the councillor that the CGA is not valid and the council would look very good in the tabloids if they persisted in enforcing against a third party, notwithstanding any legal fall ou the council will get.

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

The biggest issue is that the op has confirmed the car is still registered at that address. But won't /hasn't revealed a forwarding address.

 

Secondly, all the EA has to say is that during the phone call you gave permission for the parent to sign the cga.

 

Thirdly, the goods inside the house CAN be entered onto a CGA until such time as the 3rd party proves ownership. Nothing to stop the goods belonging to the debtor and he rents the house to his parents while he work away for instance. Have seen this on multiple occasions.

 

Also, even if you did give them your address, it wouldn't cancel the warrant. As its your parents that live at the current address, and they are in contact with you, and your car is registered there, they will presume you have had the NOE. They will look to attend an additional address to try and meet with you but it wont remove the CGA.

 

I agree with the comments made about the usual place of residency, but that's not for the EA to prove, its for the current occupants to prove, or for the debtor yo prove by supplying a new address.

[unclebulgaria67]

The biggest issue is that the op has confirmed the car is still registered at that address. But won't /hasn't revealed a forwarding address.

 

Secondly, all the EA has to say is that during the phone call you gave permission for the parent to sign the cga.

 

Thirdly, the goods inside the house CAN be entered onto a CGA until such time as the 3rd party proves ownership. Nothing to stop the goods belonging to the debtor and he rents the house to his parents while he work away for instance. Have seen this on multiple occasions.

 

Also, even if you did give them your address, it wouldn't cancel the warrant. As its your parents that live at the current address, and they are in contact with you, and your car is registered there, they will presume you have had the NOE. They will look to attend an additional address to try and meet with you but it wont remove the CGA.

 

I agree with the comments made about the usual place of residency, but that's not for the EA to prove, its for the current occupants to prove, or for the debtor yo prove by supplying a new address.

 

Some of your posts seem supportive of wrongful actions by EA's. In this instance you are suggesting that the debtor may have given permission for the parents to sign the CGA.

 

I don't find it acceptable for an EA to put their foot in the door and barge past a 75yr old. You did not condemn that action. If it were me at the door, the EA would have been punched on the nose. I would have seen that as reasonable force.

[Peterbard]

No I see where you are coming from Grumpy and a third party claim can as you say only be made after the event, however the EA has a duty to investigate an claim of third party ownership and if due care is not taken he can leave himself open to subsequent action, it is not a good idea for him to seize third party goods, if it is reasonable to assume that this is what they are. Besides which there is a vulnerability aspect on forced entry without warrant on 75 year old people who know nothing about any warrant.

[brassnecked]

Some of your posts seem supportive of wrongful actions by EA's. In this instance you are suggesting that the debtor may have given permission for the parents to sign the CGA.

 

I don't find it acceptable for an EA to put their foot in the door and barge past a 75yr old. You did not condemn that action. If it were me at the door, the EA would have been punched on the nose.I would have seen that as reasonable force so would I.

 

The Phoenix EA could only see ££££ signs, not a potential vulnerable situation. I'm sure Grumpy would have handled it differently, but he has a point regarding the address on the car V5, however this doesn't give the bailiff the right to put the foot in the door, and barge past the pensioner, who if he had been knocked flying may have been injured or even killed, as it was a third party address and proof is there that this is so, the CGA should be torn up as peaceful entry was not made, also if the father was pushed the EA should be reported for assault. Only my opinion and others will disagree.

 

OP must make an arrangement to pay, and enlist the help of their local councillor.

[Bailiff Advice]

Thank you for responding I'll give a more details now,sorry it's a bit long winded.

 

At 6.30am last Thursday 2 EAs from a company called Phoenix turned up at my parents house looking for me to pay a parking ticket from last year.

 

My father who is 75 explained I don't live there and I'm their landlord. He then phoned me and passed the phone to the agent

 

I explained the situation and said I can't make a payment immediately and that it's the first I'd heard after forgetting about the ticket.

He said the car is registered at that address and that's all that mattered and he had to take full payment now or seize goods.

 

I asked him to leave contact details and i'd sort something out once I had checked my finances, he wasn't interested and passed the to my dad who said he'd get some details. The EA then refused to accept what had been said and threatened to seize my parents goods.

 

My Dad asked if the larger of the 2 could wait in the van as he was being intimidated but would talk to the main man, this was refused. My father tried to shut the door but the agent stuck his foot in the door and pushed it open.

 

My mother was frightened and long story short the EAs took a controlled goods agreement and both men refused to leave until my father signed it.

 

He was not allowed to read the warrant and the only paperwork left was the goods agreement stating they would return at 11 am for full payment or the goods. We both phoned the police and were fobbed off.

 

I apologise if the following sounds harsh but in order to be able to help you it is impossible not to mention some areas where you may have been at fault.

 

The problem that you have is that although you do not live at the house you have nonetheless decided to register your vehicle there. Accordingly, all the notices would have been sent for your attention at that address and it is sadly the case that the correspondence was not dealt with and this in turn has unfortunately led to this visit.

 

I notice that the initial visit was nearly a week ago. Given that a Controlled Goods Agreement has been signed, have you made a payment proposal to settle the debt? If so, how much was the proposal? I will address the Controlled Goods Agreement shortly.

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

The op has already been advised the foot in the door and pushing past etc are not acceptable so no need for me to reiterate those sentiments. You all know I don't agree with those actions.

 

The op would need to make a formal complaint or an EAC2 complaint, but neither of which will stop the process of the CGA being enforced.

 

Its not up to the bailiff to accept a third party claim, but he should look into it, however, it's already been stated that the occupants could not raise proof so a cga was done. This now allows for a third party claim before goods are removed.

 

Also, being 75 does not make you vulnerable, being old COULD make you vulnerable. I know plenty of people about that age who would be offended to be classed as vulnerable.

 

I apologise if that sounded like I was supporting a wrongful approach. I am just saying that the EA can say that was said and then its "he said she said" so I wouldn't rely on it for a reason to dismiss the seizure as irregular.

The cga maybe signed by the debtor, the person in apparent authority(commercial) or someone authorised by the debtor to sign on their behalf. That is in the regulations.

By all means, it can be added to the later complaint that no authority was given.

 

I cant see if anyone has asked if these two EA's were wearing body cameras?

[brassnecked]

Good points Grumpy, helps us focus, Do Phoenix even use BWC? As to age, each case on it's meritsI know several over 75's who would knock a thug into next week, one is doing a full time parcel round, and a few people half that age who are definitely vulnerable..

[E Munch]

If the debtor genuinely does not live at the address where the Notice of Enforcement was sent it has not been validly given (served.)

 

 

TCoG Regulations 2013 regulation 8(a) says the NoE has to be given where the debtor usually live or carries out a trade or business.

I don't think the letting of the premises would normally make it a place where they carry out a trade or business.

 

If the NoE has not been validly given then TCoG regulation 6(a) has not been complied with

- that is the part that says an enforcement agent cannot TCoG unless an NoE was given 7 clear days before the goods have control taken of them.

 

Point this out to the council and to the enforcement agency

(with Phoenix I believe you could try marking it for the attention of Paul Caddy,

the CEO, as he may not be aware of what the enforcement agent is doing.)

 

 

The parents could also make a third party claim in accordance with the Civil Procedure Rules though hopefully there will be no need for that.

Then the debtor could pay their debt and re-register their car to avoid putting their parents in such a predicament again.

[Printedsquare]

Thank you for the above posts and advice.

No body cameras were worn and I approached Phoenix with regards to making payment

but explained that after the incident with my parents I wasn't prepared to pay the bailiff fee until their actions had been investigated.

 

I don't want the complaint to be brushed under the carpet.

I have not been asked for an alternative address and the attitude of Phoenix is that it's not an issue

as the have the CGA signed by my father regardless how they got it.

 

I made a mistake forgetting the ticket and have no issue with the penalty only the unnecessary way the EAs went about their job.

I don't like the thought others might be bullied in the same way, its against the CIVEA code of conduct and imo an abuse of power.

 

If the EA had just acknowledged the situation,

followed his code none of this would have been necessary for my parents

and the payment made once I could check my finances

 

He was made very clear that my parents are tenants with an unfurnished agreement but did not want to see any documentation

, he said the car being registered there was all that mattered.

 

Also I should say that I have gone out of my way not to escalate or aggravate the situation with anyone i've spoken too. It is nobody else's fault that the EA doing his job decided to behave as he did. This is not a witch hunt.