Parking dispute amongst freehold residents in private courtyard

[Sliliplili]

A few residents who have their own designated spaces or no car, object to other car owners parking in 2 empty visitor spaces on first come first served basis. Legal opinion ruled that there was a 60% probability that a court would rule that residents leases say that they may not park in these usually empty spaces.They want to bring in a car parking company to put up notices and charge £80 for any resident parking for longer than half an hour in the courtyard. How can the 3/4 car owners who are happy to cooperate and share these spaces, prevent the contracting of the car parking company? There are 14 flats and a majority voted at agm to agree with the parking restrictions. Grateful thanks for any suggestions.

[havinastella]

I have moved your thread to the correct forum for you.

[Sliliplili]

Sorry, and thank you

[Sliliplili]

I have moved your thread to the correct forum for you.[/

[i hate bailiffs]

Are these privately owned?

Any planning permission would be granted on the condition of car parking spaces

 

Private parking company's are like vermin

It would not solve the parking problems as any invoice can be appealed and cancelled

 

 

They would have to show how £80 is justified for staying longer than 40 mins

If it was to go to court

[BazzaS]

A few residents who have their own designated spaces or no car, object to other car owners parking in 2 empty visitor spaces on first come first served basis. Legal opinion ruled that there was a 60% probability that a court would rule that residents leases say that they may not park in these usually empty spaces.They want to bring in a car parking company to put up notices and charge £80 for any resident parking for longer than half an hour in the courtyard. How can the 3/4 car owners who are happy to cooperate and share these spaces, prevent the contracting of the car parking company? There are 14 flats and a majority voted at agm to agree with the parking restrictions. Grateful thanks for any suggestions.

 

"How can the 3/4 car owners who are happy to cooperate and share these spaces, prevent the contracting of the car parking company" : Buy them from the freeholders.

 

Other than that : 3/4 people want to monopolise spaces intended for the visitors to the 14 flats.

They weren't allocated as "residents parking" but "visitors parking" - why should the 3/4 make the other 10/11 loose somewhere their visitors could park? Your visitors could use them too, so you aren't being discriminated against : they just don't want residents cars always blocking visitors spaces. Something must have made this enough of an issue they are looking to enforce "visitors only" - perhaps monopoly use of the spaces by that small group of residents rather than visitors?

[Sliliplili]

Are these privately owned?

Any planning permission would be granted on the condition of car parking spaces

 

Private parking company's are like vermin

It would not solve the parking problems as any invoice can be appealed and cancelled

 

 

They would have to show how £80 is justified for staying longer than 40 mins

If it was to go to court

All residents jointly share freehold. Interesting you think the charge has to be justified, thanks

[Sliliplili]

"How can the 3/4 car owners who are happy to cooperate and share these spaces, prevent the contracting of the car parking company" : Buy them from the freeholders.

 

Other than that : 3/4 people want to monopolise spaces intended for the visitors to the 14 flats.

They weren't allocated as "residents parking" but "visitors parking" - why should the 3/4 make the other 10/11 loose somewhere their visitors could park? Your visitors could use them too, so you aren't being discriminated against : they just don't want residents cars always blocking visitors spaces. Something must have made this enough of an issue they are looking to enforce "visitors only" - perhaps monopoly use of the spaces by that small group of residents rather than visitors?

They are changing the rules to limit a visitor to 4 hours. Visitors are very rare really, and visitor permits are available for on road parking. Thank you for comments.

[i hate bailiffs]

All residents jointly share freehold. Interesting you think the charge has to be justified, thanks

Not just me thinking it needs to be justified

Parking on private land appeals

And the courts think the same

 

They can not justify a invoice for £80 what loss have they incurred

 

It is a free car park for visitors and residents they have lost 100% of nothing

It is unreasonable to expect any visitor to be gone with in 40 mins

Sounds like a few have nothing better to do than try to rule others llives

 

Private parking will not work.

[ericsbrother]

I bet there is a covenant or stipulation covering this so have a look at your deeds before deciding to take action, one way or another.

To be honest, a car parking company isnt going to make any money if they are expected to maintain some form of discipline on just the visitors spaces so you will find that they implement a system that requires all of the owners to display parking "permits" and then try and charge all those who then breach their arbitrary rules and this will cause another fight to break out at the resident's committee. However, what the parking company do will undoubtedly be wrong in law but the people who are legally responsible will be the officers of the residnets committee so I would be wanting to make sure that they know this before they hire someone.

As for parking in the visitors spaces, again I bet that the covenant has authority over those who deliberately abuse this facility and the developer/freeholder will use those powers if called upon to do so but that will be very expensive and the loser of that dispute will be footing a hefty legal bill and may well have a charge placed upon their property or suddenly find their mortgage company wants a word.

If you have 1 space and 2 cars then you have to find a long term alternative to misusing a facility provided by the developer for the common good. It is something that really should have bee thought about before purchasing as it is not a problem that has suddenly fallen from the sky.

[Sliliplili]

Not just me thinking it needs to be justified

Parking on private land appeals

And the courts think the same

 

They can not justify a invoice for £80 what loss have they incurred

 

It is a free car park for visitors and residents they have lost 100% of nothing

It is unreasonable to expect any visitor to be gone with in 40 mins

Sounds like a few have nothing better to do than try to rule others llives

 

Private parking will not work.

 

Thanks again, good to know about this

[Sliliplili]

I bet there is a covenant or stipulation covering this so have a look at your deeds before deciding to take action, one way or another.

To be honest, a car parking company isnt going to make any money if they are expected to maintain some form of discipline on just the visitors spaces so you will find that they implement a system that requires all of the owners to display parking "permits" and then try and charge all those who then breach their arbitrary rules and this will cause another fight to break out at the resident's committee. However, what the parking company do will undoubtedly be wrong in law but the people who are legally responsible will be the officers of the residnets committee so I would be wanting to make sure that they know this before they hire someone.

As for parking in the visitors spaces, again I bet that the covenant has authority over those who deliberately abuse this facility and the developer/freeholder will use those powers if called upon to do so but that will be very expensive and the loser of that dispute will be footing a hefty legal bill and may well have a charge placed upon their property or suddenly find their mortgage company wants a word.

If you have 1 space and 2 cars then you have to find a long term alternative to misusing a facility provided by the developer for the common good. It is something that really should have bee thought about before purchasing as it is not a problem that has suddenly fallen from the sky.

 

The solicitor on purchase interpreted the clause as meaning both residents and visitors could use these spaces. This went to a QC who ruled a 60% chance court would rule it as visitor only. But if it is not legal for parking company to charge then that is good news. Thanks

[ericsbrother]

Is it good news that if you will have a row with all of your neighbours being on one side or another of this argument. Let us say that you are minded to use the parking space allocated for visitors and the matter goes to court and you lose. You will have breached the terms of the lease and could lose your home. I would be very careful about taking action that upsets fellow residents and causes people to run to their lawyers. Lawyers are like academics they see the benefits and arguments for everything but will never agree with anything.

[Sliliplili]

I understand your point, thank you for advice to be cautious. The immediate issue is whether parking company could legally impose charges, or whether it could be challenged to prevent them being contracted in first place. Thanks very much for responding.

[ericsbrother]

Can a parking compny legally impose charges? On whom and for why? These are the things that you would need to know before an answer can be given but there are certain cut and dried examples of where they cant but still try. Parking in your own space without a permit. Parking in someone else's space without a permit (it is down to the owner of that space to make you move and they can tow your vehicle if you dont but they cannot charge you for that pleasure.)

An allocated space that is part of your lease is YOURS, the same way as the internal walls of the property are yours and no-one can give a parking co the authority to do anything regarding your property. If they chase after a stranger for parking in your space then they are supposed to have your permission to do so but as most people who park on private land like that are ignorant of whose land it actually is then they wont think to enquire as to whetehr the parking co is acting on your behalf, the managemtn company or the freeholder of the estate. We see many examples of stupidity fro parking co's in this area and am surprised that they still tout for business in that field.

When it come to parking in communal areas then it may be possible for a proper contract to be formed that allows the parking co to chase you. However, the amount claimed should represent their losses and nothing more. How that is calculated is a moot point and may well change

[Sliliplili]

Can a parking compny legally impose charges? On whom and for why? These are the things that you would need to know before an answer can be given but there are certain cut and dried examples of where they cant but still try. Parking in your own space without a permit. Parking in someone else's space without a permit (it is down to the owner of that space to make you move and they can tow your vehicle if you dont but they cannot charge you for that pleasure.)

An allocated space that is part of your lease is YOURS, the same way as the internal walls of the property are yours and no-one can give a parking co the authority to do anything regarding your property. If they chase after a stranger for parking in your space then they are supposed to have your permission to do so but as most people who park on private land like that are ignorant of whose land it actually is then they wont think to enquire as to whetehr the parking co is acting on your behalf, the managemtn company or the freeholder of the estate. We see many examples of stupidity fro parking co's in this area and am surprised that they still tout for business in that field.

When it come to parking in communal areas then it may be possible for a proper contract to be formed that allows the parking co to chase you. However, the amount claimed should represent their losses and nothing more. How that is calculated is a moot point and may well change

I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to reply. This thread has been very helpful.

[Sliliplili]

Update

 

At the residents assn AGM this week it was decided to place 'parking violation ' stickers on the windsreen of residents who stay longer than 30 minutes in the 2 visitor spaces. These stickers are apparently v difficult to remove. I am tempted to retaliate by placing a sticker on the car of the person who suggested/ does this, if it ever happens to me. Is there any legal implication, such as an offence of criminal damage, or making a car undrivable if vision is impaired?

 

The clause in the leases clearly state that visitors have a right use these spaces when available, and no time limit is given. The new reg also limits visitors to 4 hours in any 24. I understood that no reg could take away an existing right in a lease, so surely this cannot be enforced?

[BazzaS]

Update

 

At the residents assn AGM this week it was decided to place 'parking violation ' stickers on the windsreen of residents who stay longer than 30 minutes in the 2 visitor spaces. These stickers are apparently v difficult to remove. I am tempted to retaliate by placing a sticker on the car of the person who suggested/ does this, if it ever happens to me. Is there any legal implication, such as an offence of criminal damage, or making a car undrivable if vision is impaired?

 

The clause in the leases clearly state that visitors have a right use these spaces when available, and no time limit is given. The new reg also limits visitors to 4 hours in any 24. I understood that no reg could take away an existing right in a lease, so surely this cannot be enforced?

 

You can't put on a sticker / note that causes any damage by its removal.

 

I haven't researched this myself, but know a disabled person who places stickers on cars parked in disabled bays (and not displaying a valid Blue Badge). She obtained special stickers that are perforated, so each tiny section can be removed (and removed without damage).

It is, however, a long and tedious process to remove the whole sticker, tiny piece by tiny piece - but not a damaging process.

 

So, they might get similar stickers and not cause criminal damage.

Could you buy similar yourself? absolutely. Do you want to get into a war with your neighbours? Up to you... but you appear to be part of a minority, and do you really want to cause alienation?

[Sliliplili]

Thank you. This dispute has been ongoing for the 2 years that I have lived here and for at least a year previously. The spaces are almost always empty, and there are very few visitors. The 2/3 residents who have their own space are the ones who object, ( and one of those lives in spain for 6months a year). I think i have a right to park there on a first come first served basis. The right of visitors to park there is not disputed, but is now to be limited arbitrarily to 4 hours, which takes away a 'right' in all the leases. The remainder of the residents are in their 80s, and vote with the most aggressive voice which is the one with his own space.

 

I know how it looks, but i do think we are being bullied. Further, the resident who parks there most often is Chinese, and i think i have detected an element of racism or xenophobia in the history of the dispute.

[ericsbrother]

Taking your last point first, you are right that the decision of the residents association cannot remove rights held by way of your lease but your original posting made it clear that the legal opinion was that the visitor parking couldnt be used by leaseholders as an additional space so which is true? I would fancy the opinion of the lawyer being the correct interpretation.

As for placing stickers on the car of the person who put forward the idea of parking violation stickers on other vehicles- well, apart from being as silly as their idea it would be petty, possibly criminal damage and definitely harassment.

As you are arguing about something that isnt yours why risk getting into a position of having a legal battle with your neighbours and risking having your lease extinguished by the freeholder. It all seems a rather grave risk to take when you know very well that the reason this has all come about is because a very small minority of people are acting in a way that is upsetting the majority. You should have just made sure that the visitor spaces were available when they were likely to be in demand for the purpose they were provided and just quietly moved the cars when it was obvious that they were needed and I would doubt this would have even needed discussing.

My advice would be to try and reach an accommodation with those who are losing out to the monopolising of the facility provided by the developer by the 3-4 people you mention and try and start afresh without any claim to being right.

[Sliliplili]

Thank you. We are all freeholders. There are 2separate issues. I concede that legal opinion has said 60/40 that residents cannot park there. But visitors can, and the leases do not put a time limit on the use by visitors. So, the new 4 hour limit on visitors is, i think, not enforcable as it takes away an existing right. However, they will put stickers on visitors staying over 4hours.

 

I know putting stickers on the those who sticker is childish, but why should they do it without any redress?

 

Thanks again

[i hate bailiffs]

This sounds like it will appear on the next series of neighbours from hell:roll:

[Sliliplili]

This sounds like it will appear on the next series of neighbours from hell:roll:

 

Parking issues seem to bring out the worst in people!

[ericsbrother]

because you could end up in prison. You know very well that this issue has only come about because you and others have abused a facility that is available to all and now you want some sympathy and reassurance that you are somehow in the right. You have exhaused any sympathy I have to your casue because I like to help defeat unjust charges and action, I do not post here to help people abuse parking facilities. Planning regs make it very hard to provide parking on a new development and for some reason you want to use someone else's. grow up.

 

I know putting stickers on the those who sticker is childish, but why should they do it without any redress?

 

Thanks again