How bad is "The Work Programme" and does it ever help?

[sillygirl1]

You can also add ability to immediately research the company from home other than look on their main website, check that the company is legitimate and ensure that the cv and covering letter are uploaded to the company's own online search engine to ensure you have the best chance of getting shortlisted for that or any other suitable post in the future.

 

The WP really is a waste of time for competent professional individuals and, as I keep saying, should only be used for people with zero work experience.

[Fragil1ty]

If you find yourself in this situation, you have the right to challenge the "activity" on the grounds that you are better equipped to complete the task from home. Point to raise are:

 

• Unfettered access to the internet (Work Programme providers invariably restrict the sites you can use)
  
• Templates for covering letters and CVs are stored on secure media at home which can not be accessed from a WP computer.
  
• A home environment is quieter, safer, and free from distractions.
  
• No travel costs involved in performing the task from home.
  

 

Right okay, well I've got an Interview my advisor on Wednesday and a job search on Tuesday, so I'll bring up all of these points then, it just makes no sense what so ever.

 

You can also add ability to immediately research the company from home other than look on their main website, check that the company is legitimate and ensure that the cv and covering letter are uploaded to the company's own online search engine to ensure you have the best chance of getting shortlisted for that or any other suitable post in the future.

 

The WP really is a waste of time for competent professional individuals and, as I keep saying, should only be used for people with zero work experience.

 

I totally agree, I'm all for jobs being put forward for me to apply for and potentially get interviews at, but when they're making my life unusually hard for no apparent reason, then it starts to become a little tiresome for me. Like, there were also talks of me taking some employability course. I asked about it and it was stated that it's a 3-week long course for those who are uneducated in using computers, finding/applying for jobs successfully and how to write an efficient CV, I just looked at her like, "Are you serious?" I'm a 25- year old male /w over 2 years of experience in my field, various experience in small time jobs, a professional looking CV, been using computers since I was 12, but you are having thoughts about sending me on a employability course? lol, pathetic.

[Mr.P]

[...] there were also talks of me taking some employability course. I asked about it and it was stated that it's a 3-week long course[...]

 

My local council used to offer one of these "employability courses". Everything that needed to be covered was done in a day and it included a free lunch. The only reason I did it was that it offered me the chance to do a First Aid at Work course for a greatly reduced fee. Both courses I did off my own back, including paying all course fees and travel expenses out of my own pocket.

 

Three weeks to cover the same ground that was covered in a single day is just taking the p... Perhaps suggest that some of their staff would benefit from the same course in light that many WP providers are cutting staff.

[deepforest]

I haven't done the work programme, lucky I was just under the time on the dole to be referred. It sounds terrible! Isn't it a real incentive to actually get a job though if it's that bad? I mean, spending 30+ fighting the system and complaining with legislative examples to frustrate their every move - that sounds like a full-time job in itself!

 

I'm confused about how if you are smart enough to play the system and know your rights in law so well, why you don't just get a min wage job like me, despite having about 10 letters after my name through study, and at least spend 30+ hours a week getting paid?

 

£72 JSA doesn't go that far, and at least you get the real satisfaction of being in work. What am I missing here?

 

I've met people who are so unemployable they can't even shake your hand. Some of you with your writing skills seem to be "professionally unemployed"! In the same way a lot of people on the internet these days seem to be "professionally offended" etc.

 

What's the deal?

[honeybee13]

Hello there, I see you've just joined.

 

We don't judge people here and some people have good reasons for being unemployed, we don't always know what they are. Not everybody is playing the system.

 

I'm pleased you've found employment and hope you manage to resolve the fares problem.

 

HB

[deepforest]

thanks honeybee, sorry. I read back what I just wrote and can understand how it might come off as a bit judgmental - that wasn't my intention. I was just excited at finding a job and now really ffing irritated that I can't afford to get to it!

 

Meanwhile so many posts on this forum seem to be from certain very intelligent people, who are clearly in receipt of benefit and not rich or retired yet, getting very judgmental about any government help that's offered! I don't get that! People like that "could" belittle themselves to do a min wage job but clearly choose not to!

 

Anyway, sorry, I'm just feeling really angry and frustrated today - if anyone's got any advice to my question posted I'd really appreciate it. thanks.

[antone]

thanks honeybee, sorry. I read back what I just wrote and can understand how it might come off as a bit judgmental - that wasn't my intention. I was just excited at finding a job and now really ffing irritated that I can't afford to get to it!

 

Meanwhile so many posts on this forum seem to be from certain very intelligent people, who are clearly in receipt of benefit and not rich or retired yet, getting very judgmental about any government help that's offered! I don't get that! People like that "could" belittle themselves to do a min wage job but clearly choose not to!

 

Anyway, sorry, I'm just feeling really angry and frustrated today - if anyone's got any advice to my question posted I'd really appreciate it. thanks.

 

Believe me, the country is not overrun by people who could do min wage jobs but choose not to, and frankly neither is this forum. I mean, it's not difficult to figure this out - there aren't employers wailing that they can't fill their minimum wages posts, the average wage of such employees is not being driven up (as it would be if available labour was scarce), and most folks are like you: you can just about survive on the dole, but very few people are sitting there thinking "ah, I have my JSA and HB, and that's all I've ever wanted!"

 

And frankly, I'm not seeing where posters here are "getting judgemental about any government help that's offered". You posted a question which, rather unfortunately, is difficult to answer. The help you need used to be available - it used to be one of the best things the Jobcentre offered. Things like a first month's travel pass or maybe a suit or other "work clothes", those were things that claimants could get if needed because they were obviously useful, and in some cases essential, for people moving from benefits into work.

 

But they're not available any more, not to many people, because welfare funding has been cut. These cuts require political support, of course, and the easiest way to create that support is to inculcate in people a belief that benefit claimants are people who could do minimum wage jobs but "clearly choose not to".

[deepforest]

Believe me, the country is not overrun by people who could do min wage jobs but choose not to, and frankly neither is this forum. I mean, it's not difficult to figure this out - there aren't employers wailing that they can't fill their minimum wages posts, the average wage of such employees is not being driven up (as it would be if available labour was scarce), and most folks are like you: you can just about survive on the dole, but very few people are sitting there thinking "ah, I have my JSA and HB, and that's all I've ever wanted!"

 

And frankly, I'm not seeing where posters here are "getting judgemental about any government help that's offered". You posted a question which, rather unfortunately, is difficult to answer. The help you need used to be available - it used to be one of the best things the Jobcentre offered. Things like a first month's travel pass or maybe a suit or other "work clothes", those were things that claimants could get if needed because they were obviously useful, and in some cases essential, for people moving from benefits into work.

 

But they're not available any more, not to many people, because welfare funding has been cut. These cuts require political support, of course, and the easiest way to create that support is to inculcate in people a belief that benefit claimants are people who could do minimum wage jobs but "clearly choose not to".

 

Thanks for your answer, I'm not sure you'd really be comfortable getting into a philosophical debate about the EU and free movement of labour, and as you seem to have the power (rather like the JCP to delete, edit or close anything that displeases you) I'll just make the point that if you allow potentially - not sure of actual size of EU demographic) nearly 300 million skilled and semi-skilled (mostly) young adults with no families entrance into the UK job market then there's always going to be trouble!

 

It's a supply and demand economy anywhere in the world.

 

If you buy a £20 Easyjet ticket from Eastern Europe with no dependents, willing to live in a flat designed for 3 with 9 people, willing to work very hard for low pay, then can't you see how this will inevitably lead to problems for the indigenous young population who were brought up to believe that they could "achieve celebrity and riches" and aren't prepared to clean toilets because they feel it's "beneath them".

 

I don't blame the Eastern Europeans for doing what's allowed.

 

I don't blame the indigenous youth for being sold a lie through years of Labour education telling them they were little stars - (hence now why Special Needs have suddenly gone through the roof in the last 10 years despite diagnostic clinical criteria not really getting any more sophisticated).

 

I could go on...

 

But as I say, you probably don't really want to have this debate. x

Edited July 24, 2015 by deepforest
misspelling and statistics correction

[antone]

You know a lot about me and my godlike powers for someone who's just joined us. I'm not particularly interested in a debate about the wonders or evils of the EU because it's not a topic for the Benefits Forum. If you want a philosophical debate about these matters then the Bear Garden forum would be the place to go.

 

No, my point was in fact much more straightforward: you're the victim of your own attitudes. You don't get to generalise about benefit claimants but exempt yourself - or rather, I suppose you can if you want, but you can have no reasonable expectation that others will feel similarly inclined.

 

I hope there's a way for you to find the help you need, because as you correctly note, it's exactly the sort of help the JC should be providing.

[Fragil1ty]

I haven't done the work programme, lucky I was just under the time on the dole to be referred. It sounds terrible! Isn't it a real incentive to actually get a job though if it's that bad? I mean, spending 30+ fighting the system and complaining with legislative examples to frustrate their every move - that sounds like a full-time job in itself!

 

I'm confused about how if you are smart enough to play the system and know your rights in law so well, why you don't just get a min wage job like me, despite having about 10 letters after my name through study, and at least spend 30+ hours a week getting paid?

 

£72 JSA doesn't go that far, and at least you get the real satisfaction of being in work. What am I missing here?

 

I've met people who are so unemployable they can't even shake your hand. Some of you with your writing skills seem to be "professionally unemployed"! In the same way a lot of people on the internet these days seem to be "professionally offended" etc.

 

What's the deal?

 

Did you get a job working for the Work Programme, is that why you're so annoyed?

 

But no seriously, who are you talking to? Me, Mr. P, whom? I don't know. One question that I will answer though, is the following:

 

I'm confused about how if you are smart enough to play the system and know your rightsicon in law so well, why you don't just get a min wage job like me

 

Why would any one given the choice want to have to work a minimum wage job? I know I wouldn't, when I personally apply for jobs, I look at it like as if it were a Tier list, at the top would be the jobs that I want to apply for, the jobs in my trade (Web Development, Web design, UI/UX design/development, etc), after that it would be Computer engineering jobs, assist. technical roles (technician roles) etc and then finally the min. wage jobs, the retail jobs, the online/over the phone support jobs etc.

 

Now while I'm pretty sure that if I applied for nothing but minimum wage jobs I could have a job within the month but I would rather try and get a job in something that I know I'm more than qualified in than work at something, get crap pay (minimum wage) and be miserable in/at, you know what I mean?

 

Maybe you're happy doing what you're doing, but that's just not me.

[estellyn]

Did you get a job working for the Work Programme, is that why you're so annoyed?

 

But no seriously, who are you talking to? Me, Mr. P, whom? I don't know. One question that I will answer though, is the following:

 

 

 

Why would any one given the choice want to have to work a minimum wage job? I know I wouldn't, when I personally apply for jobs, I look at it like as if it were a Tier list, at the top would be the jobs that I want to apply for, the jobs in my trade (Web Development, Web design, UI/UX design/development, etc), after that it would be Computer engineering jobs, assist. technical roles (technician roles) etc and then finally the min. wage jobs, the retail jobs, the online/over the phone support jobs etc.

 

Now while I'm pretty sure that if I applied for nothing but minimum wage jobs I could have a job within the month but I would rather try and get a job in something that I know I'm more than qualified in than work at something, get crap pay (minimum wage) and be miserable in/at, you know what I mean?

 

Maybe you're happy doing what you're doing, but that's just not me.

 

Might be best not to feed the troll. Also you wouldn't believe the number of minimum wage jobs I was turned down for as being overqualified for following a move for husband's job. I just wanted to work any job while looking for the right one, but the employer is looking for a long term employee - they don't want people who are going to jump ship in a couple of months. Why the WP try to get people to leave off previous jobs and qualifications from their cv's when applying for minimum wage. Luckily I found something in my field within four months, but I had to take a part time position to get a foot in the door.

[Fragil1ty]

Might be best not to feed the troll. Also you wouldn't believe the number of minimum wage jobs I was turned down for as being overqualified for following a move for husband's job. I just wanted to work any job while looking for the right one, but the employer is looking for a long term employee - they don't want people who are going to jump ship in a couple of months. Why the WP try to get people to leave off previous jobs and qualifications from their cv's when applying for minimum wage. Luckily I found something in my field within four months, but I had to take a part time position to get a foot in the door.

 

Don't you find that if you get yourself involved in a job that isn't entirely what you want to do, that you end up losing focus/determination for the actual job that you wanted to get? I used to work for a company, nothing big, it was just a simple admin job and I started to lose overall focus regarding my Web Development jobs, I didn't want to work full-time + work part-time for myself because I then would literally have no time left for myself, I'd work 9-5 and then if I did have a job that needed completing I would either a.) have to have some food when I'd get in and then crack on til around midnight and then go bed. b.) Not do it and potentially lose out on money I could be making and experience I could be getting or c.) Leave it until the weekend thus delaying my client, so in the end I just lost a lot of focus for my hobby and my passion and I just stopped doing freelance work and going for interviews regarding web development.

 

I just feel that the WP do not care about your happiness, they do not care what job you take, they could have you cleaning toilets and it would be a win for them, they do not have the best interests at heart or that's the impression that I'm currently getting anyway.

[estellyn]

Don't you find that if you get yourself involved in a job that isn't entirely what you want to do, that you end up losing focus/determination for the actual job that you wanted to get? I used to work for a company, nothing big, it was just a simple admin job and I started to lose overall focus regarding my Web Development jobs, I didn't want to work full-time + work part-time for myself because I then would literally have no time left for myself, I'd work 9-5 and then if I did have a job that needed completing I would either a.) have to have some food when I'd get in and then crack on til around midnight and then go bed. b.) Not do it and potentially lose out on money I could be making and experience I could be getting or c.) Leave it until the weekend thus delaying my client, so in the end I just lost a lot of focus for my hobby and my passion and I just stopped doing freelance work and going for interviews regarding web development.

 

I just feel that the WP do not care about your happiness, they do not care what job you take, they could have you cleaning toilets and it would be a win for them, they do not have the best interests at heart or that's the impression that I'm currently getting anyway.

 

I think we make choices about our priorities - it doesn't make either of our choices wrong, it's just a different way to go. I wasn't on the WP (pre WP), and I never got to have the MW job at that time because I was told numerous times that I was overqualified, so I don't know if it would have detracted from my job search - though I do think that and self employment are not the same thing. Have you checked if you'd qualify for WTC? (I can't remember if you mentioned it) I have done MW jobs before while at Uni and found them incredibly motivating, as in 'I really need to graduate so that I never have to do this work again', and I did retail, fast food, warehouse, production line, call centre, agency, data input (actually that one was nice), care work (some of that was nice) while working my way through A levels and Uni. Oodles of motivation.

[deepforest]

I think we make choices about our priorities - it doesn't make either of our choices wrong, it's just a different way to go. I wasn't on the WP (pre WP), and I never got to have the MW job at that time because I was told numerous times that I was overqualified, so I don't know if it would have detracted from my job search - though I do think that and self employment are not the same thing. Have you checked if you'd qualify for WTC? (I can't remember if you mentioned it) I have done MW jobs before while at Uni and found them incredibly motivating, as in 'I really need to graduate so that I never have to do this work again', and I did retail, fast food, warehouse, production line, call centre, agency, data input (actually that one was nice), care work (some of that was nice) while working my way through A levels and Uni. Oodles of motivation.

 

He's not saying that, Estellyn.

 

He's saying because in his own head he feels he's such a great graphic designer that he shouldn't have to subject himself to min wage jobs.

 

But it would seem the paying public have disagreed. So he'd rather stay on the dole living in a fantasy world, than facing the reality he just wasn't good enough, and found some other career to make money from.

 

That sort of self denial could last a life-time, yet you feel it's wrong to try and prick the bubble? Meanwhile people are going to ATOS talking about "anxiety" and aren't being believed....

[estellyn]

He's not saying that, Estellyn.

 

He's saying because in his own head he feels he's such a great graphic designer that he shouldn't have to subject himself to min wage jobs.

 

But it would seem the paying public have disagreed. So he'd rather stay on the dole living in a fantasy world, than facing the reality he just wasn't good enough, and found some other career to make money from.

 

That sort of self denial could last a life-time, yet you feel it's wrong to try and prick the bubble? Meanwhile people are going to ATOS talking about "anxiety" and aren't being believed....

 

You appear to be a troll, attempting to provoke other forum members. Your comments are not relevant to the topic at hand, and are insulting to another forum member.

[think about it]

I just feel that the WP do not care about your happiness, they do not care what job you take, they could have you cleaning toilets and it would be a win for them, they do not have the best interests at heart or that's the impression that I'm currently getting anyway.

 

You're exactly right, the DWP and consequently the WP providers couldn't care less. They see JSA as a stop gap, a safety net - not a place for aspiration or planning. I said it earlier and it stands true now - the sooner people at large realise this the sooner their overall dissatisfaction with the DWP and WP will end.

[antone]

You're exactly right, the DWP and consequently the WP providers couldn't care less. They see JSA as a stop gap, a safety net - not a place for aspiration or planning. I said it earlier and it stands true now - the sooner people at large realise this the sooner their overall dissatisfaction with the DWP and WP will end.

 

Dissastisfaction with the DWP, maybe. Probably not, because of the systemic inefficiency and callous disregard for economic reality, but at least no-one thinks they're actually turning a profit out of the misery of others.

 

Now the Work Programme, on the other hand, well, the day we stop being upset about this shameless funneling of public money into private hands for no tangible reward whatsoever will be the day we should all officially stop even pretending to want a better society. The cost could perhaps be justified if there were even a shred of evidence that it is in any way effective. There is no such evidence. With all respect to the handful of decent people who work work for WPPs, it's a racket. It's not even a particularly well-disguised racket, really.

[Fragil1ty]

He's not saying that, Estellyn.

 

He's saying because in his own head he feels he's such a great graphic designer that he shouldn't have to subject himself to min wage jobs.

 

But it would seem the paying public have disagreed. So he'd rather stay on the dole living in a fantasy world, than facing the reality he just wasn't good enough, and found some other career to make money from.

 

That sort of self denial could last a life-time, yet you feel it's wrong to try and prick the bubble? Meanwhile people are going to ATOS talking about "anxiety" and aren't being believed....

 

I'm actually a Web Developer and not a graphic designer, so that's that. But Your comments are quite rude and as Estellyn pointed out, you being a troll? I don't understand where it's coming from.

 

He's saying because in his own head he feels he's such a great graphic designer that he shouldn't have to subject himself to min wage jobs.

 

Completely false, I stated that when in minimum wage jobs I would lose focus on my other work, my freelance work, my web development work and that would make me question if I'm doing the right thing being in x line of work instead of y. I finished university in 2013 and since then I have been involved in Web Development jobs (both small and large) and also had other part-time jobs along the way, but I wont be addressing any of your further comments, you're just rude for no other reason than to be rude.

 

You have a nice day now.

 

You're exactly right, the DWP and consequently the WP providers couldn't care less. They see JSA as a stop gap, a safety net - not a place for aspiration or planning. I said it earlier and it stands true now - the sooner people at large realise this the sooner their overall dissatisfaction with the DWP and WP will end.

 

Got my time at the WP tomorrow to "search for jobs", so that should be moderately interesting. Let's hope it goes well, I really cannot be bothered going due to the fact that I am literally going to be applying for jobs that I've already applied for, lol.

[SabreSheep]

I personally do not feel that the work program's deliver value for tax payers money. Anyone who is employed and paying tax should really be angry about this!!!

 

Stop focusing on the unemployed and look at the system we are paying for that is failing to support them.

 

Think how much money spent on these low result programs could be better spent on things like creating jobs, real training, real investment in people to get them into work!

[antone]

I personally do not feel that the work program's deliver value for tax payers money. Anyone who is employed and paying tax should really be angry about this!!!

 

Stop focusing on the unemployed and look at the system we are paying for that is failing to support them.

 

Think how much money spent on these low result programs could be better spent on things like creating jobs, real training, real investment in people to get them into work!

 

Aye, quite. In most cases, what jobseekers really need is to have enough money that they don't worry about starving and freezing in the dark or on the streets, and to be left alone to find work. That's about the only useful thing we can do to "help" the majority. We could also provide, on a purely voluntary basis, access to computers, printers and telephones (an updated version of the old Job Clubs), and the pre-UJM Jobcentre jobsearch website wasn't terrible either. It was quite cheap, at least, and did not have the appearance of being a sanction machine. When people find work, we could provide help with travel to work costs for the first month - perhaps a one month run-on of JSA/UC and HB. There will also be the odd claimant who needs help with work clothes.

 

There will also be cases where we could help, again on a voluntary basis, with things like computer skills, literacy and so on. And yes, some genuine recognised training too - Microsoft/Cisco certifications, forklift licences, bar staff licencing, whatever.

 

What we specifically do not need is to hand over a small fortune of taxpayers money to companies which have repeatedly failed to provide any value whatsoever for that money.

[estellyn]

sadly simply being a human being isn't enough to merit the basics to live....we now have to prove we are worthy to receive such things. Back to the deserving and undeserving poor - jump through all of these hoops and we'll give you money to live. Fail the test and money to live is withdrawn.

 

Unfortunately it seems that benefits ARE a trap that is very difficult to escape. IDS seems to think that using a really big stick will do it - but if someone can't can't pay travel expenses or eat until their first pay day.....

 

And as Antone says, even worse is that we now have companies whose sole purpose is making money off of the poor, and not in a good symbiotic way, but in a 'we'll do the least amount possible to fulfill our contract and collect the cash'.

[Fragil1ty]

You know like there are "mandatory" job searches every week or whatever, does anyone know how long these usually last? As I would rather not spend hours there when I could be using those hours at home and doing more efficient job searches with a better computer, better tools and better internet, along /w a quiet environment for when arranging interviews/phone calls etc.

 

So yeah, any one who has been to these things in the past, what is the usual time frame that they go on for?

[Mr.P]

You know like there are "mandatory" job searches every week or whatever, does anyone know how long these usually last?

 

I never had the misfortune to suffer the ignominy of "mandatory" or "supervised" job searches, so can't comment on their effectiveness. However, if the sessions have not been preceded by a correctly worded letter, then they are not mandatory.

 

i.e. If you have just had a text message, telephone call, or email telling you that you must attend, I'd be instructing them to look at Chapter 3a of the DWP issued guidance.

 

Even if the session has been correctly mandated, you have the option to challenge it on the grounds of being unsuitable in your circumstances. If that fails, then you have no option but to turn up or risk a sanction. Once there, get your monies (or at least the tax payer's) worth - Tie up as many "advisers" as you can by engaging them in pointless tasks (printer jams, broken pencils, lack of toilet paper, etc). Make the most of the printing facilities by generating multiple copies of the DWP guidance

 

When you have run out of "stuff" to print, there is always wget -crkO /dev/lp *

[Chester6]

When I was stuck on mandatory job seeking it was two hours of pure tedium

[Fragil1ty]

Just thought I'd post back and post a bit of insight. So this week I've got to visit the WP building twice:

 

* Once for the "mandatory" job searching

* Once for a general interview w/ my advisor, who I cannot stand already

 

So once I got there, I was told behind one of the men at the glass, "Please take a seat and your advisor will come on over and bla bla", I did and I was sat down for like 20+ minutes before she came over and said that I needed to be on the computers near the sign in sheet (In a degrading manner, trying to make me feel like **** because of whatever reason), I did not know this, I thought she was going to walk through some stuff with me, so I was not going to stand for that, so I simply stated in a loud but firm manner, "Right, well the guy over there told me that you would be informed that I was here and you'd be walking me through the Job Search progress on these computers, I've been sat here for 20 minutes and it's not on."

 

I found out that I'm required to each week, come into the WP building and job search using their computers for 1 hour, I don't understand this what so ever. It dumbfounds me how I have to do this in their building rather than at home, it's not even supervised, I could literally come in, sit on the computers, do nothing and leave after the hour is up, I just don't get it.