Used an 'NHS only bay' in a council car park, got a PCN, but signs are too high up to read?

[Mike505]

I accidentally parked on an NHS parking bay section in Purley car park.

 

 

The only indication that it was a specialized parking bay was the parking box line coloured blue and a sign 10 to 12 feet high saying NHS parking only.

.. no other indications what the blue lines meant.

 

 

It was raining heavily when I parked so I wasnt about to turn my head up at the sky to read ANY signs even if I saw them.

 

 

I dashed to the machine got a ticket and rushed out of the car park.

 

 

I appealed and it was declined.

 

 

I missed the 2 week deadline and now I have been sent a Notice to Owner with a £130 bill.

the charge is "85-parking without clearly displaying a valid permit where required".

 

 

If the council want fines of this magnitude surely they can paint "NHS only" in the bays,

have a notice near the ticket machine saying "NHS only in blue bays"

or bring the sign down where people can see it, not at 12 feet high.

I feel this is unfair and I have been ripped off.

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

Who is the ticket from please? It's very likely that it's a private parking company, in which case we'll move you to that forum.

 

Does it say parking charge notice or penalty charge notice?

 

My best, HB

[Mike505]

Hello Honeybee13. thank you for coming back to me. No its not private, its from Croydon Council. I have photos of how ridiculously high the sign is.

[honeybee13]

Right, thank you. That's unusual for a hospital car park. Can you tell us which hospital please?

 

And it definitely says penalty charge notice?

 

HB

[Mike505]

Hi HB, its a public car park but they have reserved some spaces in the top floor for the nearby Purley Hospital it seems.

 

I cannot find the original ticket, but the "notice to owner" I got yesterday has a PCN number, served by a "civil enforcement officer" (as it says on the notice).

 

It also says if I dont pay within 30 days, the fine will increase to £195.

 

I dont know how they justify these extortionate fines

 

At the time,

most of the top floor was empty anyway (a quarter of is allocated to NHS).

 

So its not as if I parked there because I couldnt find any other bay to park in.

 

In my appeal I stated this and I also stated that the sign was not at eye level so they cannot expect anyone to observe it

unless they were 10 feet tall at least.

 

This is a deliberate attempt at confusing motorists and extract heavy fines I feel.

[honeybee13]

So you appealed against the penalty? Can you tell us when this was please?

 

Edited: and what was their reply?

 

HB

[honeybee13]

So you appealed against the penalty? Can you tell us when this was please?

 

Edited: and what was their reply?

 

HB

 

Sorry, I think you've probably told us about the reply. I don't know the answers myself, but people who do should be along later today or tomorrow if you can bear with us.

 

HB

[Mike505]

about 3 weeks ago.

 

 

The correspondence with the ticket enforcers is unusual in the sense that they sent me 2 full A4 sized colour photos of my car parked in the bay.

 

 

Does this mean they are private car park enforcers?

[honeybee13]

about 3 weeks ago. The correspondence with the ticket enforcers is unusual in the sense that they sent me 2 full A4 sized colour photos of my car parked in the bay. Does this mean they are private car park enforcers?

 

Hi. I'm not sure about the answer, but who replied to you please?

 

HB

[Mike505]

Their reply letter says "parking services" at the top.

 

 

They say "the onus is on the driver to ensure they observe the signs as there is no requirement to paint NHS on the bays as they are coloured blue.

 

 

therefore I am satisfied that that sufficient advance notice was in place"

[Mike505]

The reply was not signed. It just says "Parking Services" and the letterhead is Croydon. and croydongovuk It could be that the council has hired a private company.

 

Sorry, I didnt see overleaf. It is signed by "PCN processing, Parking and Departmental Support Services"

[honeybee13]

Thank you for the information. It sounds as if it could be the council, but as I don't know enough about this, I shall leave it for the guys who do to turn up soon.

 

Don't worry for now.

 

HB

[Mike505]

Thanks HB much appreciated

[dx100uk]

are the word 'Penalty Charge Notice'

used anywhere.

 

 

dx

[Mike505]

Hi dx

Yes Penalty Charge Notice is used at the top of the reply letter to my failed appeal.

I hope this means good news!

 

By saying the "onus is on the driver to ensure they observe the signs "

also implies that the onus is on the parking admin to make said signs within easy and accessible reach of the motorist.

 

 

This is not an egg hunt.

 

 

By buying a ticket and displaying it I was clearly observing the law,

but I cannot observe laws that are unobservable because of 12 foot high signs.

[Mike505]

Sorry, unintended links appearing in my last post.

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

Well, penalty charge means it's definitely the council and not a private parking company. It's not as easy to challenge as a private parking notice, but the guys here will know the answers.

 

If needed, could you get photos of the signs?

 

HB

[Jamberson]

Signs have to be clearly visible and legible. If the signage was inadequate then that is grounds for an appeal, but of course, what constitutes inadequate is open to opinion.

 

You have two options - pay or appeal. If you opt for the latter, then it would help your case if you could gather photographs of the bays, clearly showing that the only signage is well away from where you would normally be looking. Also, get photographs of the bays you are allowed to park in, to show there is no obvious difference. Your appeal will be on the basis that the signs are not clear enough for a reasonable person to know they can't park there, and that you accept a responsibility to look for signs, but only in places where you would reasonably expect to find them.

[Mike505]

Hi HB and Jamberson

I have already done a first appeal with photos and it was declined (please see their reasons above). Please see attached jpeg file of sign

[Mike505]

Sorry, just saw the jpeg and its tiny. The sign is actually 10 to 12 feet up on the black pole with the square yellow base.

[mikeymack2002]

Can you please convert the JPEG to PDF then repost it...

[mikeymack2002]

Having seen roughly the position of this sign your appeal should and must state you were unable to see the sign due to its location. It is far to high for normal viewing...

[Mike505]

Here it is Mikeymack2002

[Mike505]

In rain conditions this sign would be virtually out of reasonable line of sight.

[Jamberson]

It's impossible to tell from the photo, how high up the sign is. It doesn't look all that unreasonable to me.