Harlands & CRS issues

[braytown]

Hi Guys,

 

I've ensured I have not spoken to these guys on the phone so far so a few emails below and some background;

 

I'm being chased for debt I feel I do not owe. I moved to Eccles and heard about your gym which was more local than the gym I'd been using before the move, I found out they had a 7 day trial so I thought I'd give it a go.

After the 7 days I had follow up calls from a representative of Your Gym, I explained that although it was a little more local the facilities weren't as good so I was unsure if I'd take a membership but I'd have think. Following that I received another couple of calls with the final one offering a deal;

The deal was, if you're not sure you can pay £30 up front and that will get you 3 months membership, after that if you're not convinced you can cancel.

I decided to take the offer and keep my other gym membership running so I could see which I used more, I hardly used Your Gym in the end preferring my old gym for it's equipment. I have records showing the calls I received, I have direct debits that show I continued with my old membership at the same time.

I was told to go online and pay the £30 on the your gym website, which I did in good faith. 3 months later I had cancelled the Direct Debit as I didn't want to continue as per the advice from your gym, then I began to get letters from Harlands and subsequently CRS who are now saying I owe £164.47.

 

 

It all went quiet after my last email requesting a copy of the signed contract (which doesn't exist as it was online) and all they've ever sent is a copy of a confirmation email!

 

Now I've just had a letter through the door from CRS - we seem have gone from £15.99 (membership fee) to me owing £164.47

 

It's a joke that they do this.

 

I've sent a letter to the gym, I've only corresponded with harlands via email, the gym haven't responded so I've just got this to deal with now.

 

 

 

I've now received this from CRS;

 

 

Dear Mr

 

Further to your email of 18th May 2015 please be advised initially that Harlands is no longer regulated by the FCA as they no longer deal in regulated Credit Agreements and have allowed their Consumer Credit License to expire on 31st May 2015.

 

In regards to your request for a signed document we apologise that Harlands have incorrectly used the term "signed" to describe how you entered into this agreement. We are unable to enclose a signed copy of your minimum term membership agreement, as this was entered into via an online sign up process and as such, no signed physical document exists.

 

An online agreement is no more or less binding than a signed contract. A party must agree to the terms of a contract in order for it to become legally binding. Although this is usually done by the signature of those with authority to enter into the agreement, it is commonly recognised that parties can enter into a contract by any course of dealing, signifying their acceptance of the terms of the contract.

 

In January 2009, the High Court in Grant v Bragg considered whether a contract was formed by two parties agreeing to the terms of the draft contract via e-mail. The Court considered it was enough for Mr Grant to have e-mailed Mr Bragg, accepting the contract's terms previously e-mailed to him by Mr Bragg's lawyer, and that it did not matter that neither party had actually signed the contract. The Court acknowledged it may have been the parties' original intention to be bound only on execution of the final contract, but maintained it was evident that their intentions had changed during the course of their e-mail correspondence.

 

In the case above, the court believed it was clear the parties had intended to enter into the contract via e-mail, and that to hold otherwise would just serve to defy the commercial reality of the situation

 

In the instance of the Your Gym online sign up portal you have been told that "You are committing to £15.99 per month for a minimum of 3 months. After this minimum term your membership payments will continue on a monthly basis." You have also been informed that by ticking the "I agree" button and then clicking the next step button you are indicating that you have read and agreed to be bound by the terms. You have completed this process and so are bound by the agreement.

 

It is correct that only a judge may enforce a "penalty charge" however it is our position that all charges applied to this balance are to cover actual and necessary costs and thus are not penalties. Lord Dunedin set out in Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage & Motor Co Ltd (1914) that:

 

"It is no obstacle to the sum stipulated being a genuine pre-estimate of damage, that the consequences of the breach are such as to make precise pre-estimation almost an impossibility. On the contrary, that is just the situation when it is probable that pre-estimated damage was the true bargain between the parties ( Clydebank Case, Lord Halsbury; Webster v. Bosanquet, Lord Mersey)."

 

The above applies to the cost of £25.00 applied twice by Harlands and also in regards to our own collection fees of £66.50. We believe, therefore; that these charges do not constitute a penalty and are thus fully enforceable.

 

If you still doubt any of the above we would recommend that you seek legal advice but it is our intention to continue with recovery action against you for the sum of £164.47.

 

Yours sincerely,

[fkofilee]

Slick will be along shortly. They are pretty good with these things.

The penalty fees are not enforceable and cannot be treated as so. What about those "Collection Fees"

 

I see that it was a contract for 3 months? Or did i get that wrong.

 

:eugh: CRS ... AGAIN!

[braytown]

Hopefully you can help, the gym were bad enough, they practically hounded me with offers, there's no way I'd have taken it if I knew I'd have to do an additional 3 months. I think they used ambiguity to convince me and I should have been a little more reserved but I'll live and learn - hopefully with a win in hand too

[slick132]

Hi Bray and welcome to CAG

 

When you paid the £30, who was this paid to ?

 

Above is a great example of the lengthy waffle that Harlands/CRS like to sometimes write to substantiate their demands. In case you're not aware, Harlands and CRS are one and the same, operating from the same office.

 

It sounds like you agreed to a 3 month trial that you could cancel with a month's notice. Unless you gave notice to cancel at the start of the 3rd month the agreement would continue on a rolling monthly basis.

 

However, it may be that this was an informal arrangement made with the gym, to give you a trial period. I'd send Harlands a letter asking for the T&C's governing your membership agreement.

 

Dear sir or madam,

 

I refer to the demands for payment from Harlands/CRS for membership at Your Gym in [Town].

 

I dispute owing the amount demanded and, until this is resolved, you must stop collection activity, either as Harlands or as CRS.

 

To enable me to consider my position properly, I require that you send me a complete set of the Terms and Conditions governing my membership.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Get a free Certificate of Posting from the PO when you send this.

 

Don't speak to Harlands/CRS or the gym by phone at all.

 

Ignore any further demands from Harlands/CRS for now but let us know when they contact you.

 

[braytown]

Hi there, thanks for the advice.

 

I had a couple of calls from the gym trying get me to join, when I said I'd have think they came back to me saying if I pay £30 it will cover 3 months and if I'm not happy after I don't have to continue as they only have 3 month minimum terms.

 

When I offered to pay over the phone he told me to go online as there are health questionairres I needed to complete.

 

Seemed fair enough as you do with most gyms.

 

CRS and Harlands are saying I owe an additional 3 months, obviously it was all done online, I didn't sign any documents etc... but they're chucking old cases at me about how if you register online it's as legal as a signature. My argument was mis-selling and mis-representing what was in fact true. I can see where the confusion lay, if I saw 3 months contract anywhere I would have assumed the £30 3 months thing I'd been told on the phone.

 

Cheers,

 

Bray

[slick132]

Hi Bray,

 

Wait and see how they reply.

 

They will say that, by using their online portal to pay and join, you had access to their T&C's and are therefore bound by them. I've had a look at the T&C's here - http://www.yourgymuk.co.uk/YG%20Terms%20v2.pdf

 

Under the heading RENEWAL I found this :-

 

RENEWAL

1. In order to extend your membership after completing the minimum number of direct debit

payments, we will automatically continue collecting the direct debit payment amount every month.

2. Your membership will be extended by one month each payment. Each payment made is not

refundable under any circumstances.

 

I suggest this is quite poorly written and will not stand up to scrutiny. By cancelling the DD mandate, they were unable to take payments each month and extend or renew the m/ship each month.

 

Anyway, let us know how they reply.

 

[braytown]

Which means their staff are getting away with lying and directing people to the website under false pretense - but I have no way of proving the content of the call, just the fact they called 3 times to try and get me to join after I'd done the 7 day trial

[slick132]

Hi Bray,

 

See how they reply to your request letter .........

 

When I looked at their site, the 3 m/ship options were :-

 

1. Annual paid in advance.

 

2. Monthly, committed for 12 months.

 

3. Monthly, no contract but more expensive that option 2 above.

 

Did you opt for one of these, or did you use another means to pay the £30 as agreed with the gym staff.

 

[braytown]

I thought I paid the £30 and filled in my details, I may have chosen the monthly option - I definitely did not choose any 12 month contract.

[slick132]

Ok and come back when Harlands reply.

 

[braytown]

Hi all,

 

they have sent me a letter today stating;

 

"Further to my letter on 30th June 2015 we write to confirm that as we have already supplied you with clear explanation as to why your claims are invalid there is not obligation for us to suspend further action against you.

 

Please find enclosed, as requested, a copy of the term and conditions that you have agreed to.

 

We shall suspend action against you for a period of 30 days to all you time to review these terms and seek advice.

 

Yours sincerely......"

[slick132]

Reply saying :-

 

Dear sir or madam,

 

I refer to your letter of xxdate enclosing T&C's you say governed my gym m/ship. In particular ........

 

"Fees and charges - 2. You are obligated to make the minimum number of direct debit payments stated ...... "

 

The T&C's do not state a minimum number.

 

Further, the gym staff told me I could try the gym without obligation paying £30 for 3 months, after which I could continue or leave without notice. I decided to NOT continue with YourGym and cancelled the DD mandate.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

[slick132]

I have to say, what troubles me here is you stated you had to make the £30 payment on the YourGym website. But I doubt that option was open to you.

 

Perhaps the nearest thing you could do is set up a m/ship on a monthly No-Contract basis.

 

Please check your bank statements to see what you paid when you visited the sign-up site, and what was taken subsequently by DD's.

 

[braytown]

Thanks again, I'll be back when I get a response.

[braytown]

Afternoon all, response came today after I sent what you previously suggested. Very text book standard response by the looks of it, any advice on how to proceed appreciated.

 

"Our position remains as previously advised. If you are not willing to set up a payment plan with us, we have no alternative but to proceed with further action against you. We will hold this for a further 7 days. If you advise us again that you do not intend to pay, we will continue our collection procedure, but will not continue to enter into further correspondence as our decision has been made.

 

Payment can be made by Credit/Debit card by calling us on 01444 449165. Alternatively, cheque/postal orders should be made payable to Credit Resolution Services and sent to CRS, 2nd Floor, Rockwood House, 9-17 Perrymount Road, Haywards Heath, West Sussex, RH16 3TW.

 

A payment plan can also be set up if you are unable to settle in full, although we do charge a little extra for this.

 

If you are experiencing financial difficulty, there are organisations who offer free debt advice and assistance such as Step Change (0800 1381111), National Debtline (0808 8084000) and your local Citizen Advice Bureau.

 

Please ensure a payment or response is received within the next 7 days, so we can avoid further action being taken.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

David Castle

 

Collections Department

 

Credit Resolution Services and CRS are trading styles of Harlands Services Ltd. Registered Office: : 2nd Floor, Rockwood House, 9 - 17 Perrymount Road, Haywards Heath RH16 3TW. Company Registration No. 2982925. VAT Registration No. 799 7113 70."

[fkofilee]

Youve made an offer. Now ignore.

[slick132]

Hi BT,

 

I see no reason to reply to them.

 

I'd ignore for now and see what they do next.

 

[braytown]

The gym operates a monthly no contract basis, there are options to pay 12 months up front for a discount and things like that, but I wouldn't have done that.

[braytown]

OK, that fact that they've not specified what further action they're going to take tells me it wouldn't be court or anything like that, seems I'm dealing with the same guy each time as well which is probably a good thing.

[fkofilee]

Harlands are full of hot air when it comes to this so dont worry .

Youll be fine

[braytown]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]58862[/ATTACH]

 

hi guys, ignored and now I've just had this through.... any advice on what I should do now appreciated?

Edited August 10, 2015 by braytown

[fkofilee]

Seems to be a new template letter from them. Saw this earlier.

I think you'll be okay.

[braytown]

Thanks, is the advice to ignore in that case?

[slick132]

Hi Bray,

 

If this letter was from CRS, I see no need to reply at this stage.

 

Read other threads here and you'll see Harlands/CRS are using similar letters with other CAGgers.

 

Note that they say what COULD happen, not what WILL happen.

 

As always, they're full of hot air !!

 

[braytown]

Great thanks for that, yes i have read others so I'll stick to the plan for now and come back if I get anything else