Bailiffs involved over unpaid PCN

[bigkahuna666]

I have to bump this again I am afraid... hope to hear back soon so I/we can tackle this.

[honeybee13]

Hello there. As this seems to be about the council and not bailiffs now, I'll move your thread to the local authority parking forum.

 

I have removed a couple of off topic posts from your thread, hopefully the local authority guys will be along later.

 

HB

Edited August 4, 2015 by honeybee13

[honeybee13]

Hello there. As this seems to be about the council and not bailiffs now, I'll move your thread to the local authority parking forum.

 

I have removed a couple of off topic posts from your thread, hopefully the local authority guys will be along later.

 

HB

[Jamberson]

So, where are we at with this? What's happened since 17 July?

 

Not sure what the purpose of the complaint letter is. If you want to challenge this, you need the N244 process. Complaints aren't really relevant to a resolution.

[Jamberson]

So, where are we at with this? What's happened since 17 July?

 

Not sure what the purpose of the complaint letter is. If you want to challenge this, you need the N244 process. Complaints aren't really relevant to a resolution.

[Bailiff Advice]

I have looked everywhere for this query !!! I thought that the thread had been removed.

 

In your post number 10 you have provided a draft of a letter that you were considering sending. Have you sent the letter?

 

Unfortunately, if you consider making a formal complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman it will almost certainly be the case that your complaint will be rejected by them. The reason for this being that the LGO will very rarely consider a complaint where an 'alternative remedy' exists (such as an N244).

 

Now that I realise that your thread is in the parking section I will look back later today for any replies.

[Bailiff Advice]

I have looked everywhere for this query !!! I thought that the thread had been removed.

 

In your post number 10 you have provided a draft of a letter that you were considering sending. Have you sent the letter?

 

Unfortunately, if you consider making a formal complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman it will almost certainly be the case that your complaint will be rejected by them. The reason for this being that the LGO will very rarely consider a complaint where an 'alternative remedy' exists (such as an N244).

 

Now that I realise that your thread is in the parking section I will look back later today for any replies.

[bigkahuna666]

Hi everyone,

 

thanks a lot for your responses.

 

So the situation at the moment is as follows: I was not provided with a statement of truth after sending my TE7&TE9, instead the enforcement process was reinstated 2 months later and then I went on holiday, so ended up having to pay a weekly sum to the bailiffs in order for my van not getting taken. I couldn't fill out N244 and send it off, because I wasn't able to include a postal order of £50 from abroad. By the time I got back I thought I should just pay the last few installments and then instead go the "pay&claim" route, ie. make a formal complaint to the council to make them aware that 'I know what they did' and if they don't reply to offer a solution I go straight to the small claims court?

 

However, it seems to be the general advice here that I should complete N244 instead? I find this form slightly confusing, especially

 

10. What information will you be relying on, in support of your application? the attached witness statement

the statement of case

the evidence set out in the box below

 

In my original form I ticked the last one and wrote a similar statement to my complaint letter to the council? How does a 'witness statement' differ from 'evidence set out in the box below'? and what is a 'statement of case'? are any of the other two better than the last?

 

What about a Chargeback? apparently I have 60 days to go to my bank and do a chargeback against the bailiffs?

 

Could I send my filled out N244 to someone to read before I send it off? I understand that this is pretty much my only good shot I have before things are getting 'nasty', so would like to avoid having superfluous information in there and make sure I tick all the boxes etc.

 

regards P

[bigkahuna666]

Hi everyone,

 

thanks a lot for your responses.

 

So the situation at the moment is as follows: I was not provided with a statement of truth after sending my TE7&TE9, instead the enforcement process was reinstated 2 months later and then I went on holiday, so ended up having to pay a weekly sum to the bailiffs in order for my van not getting taken. I couldn't fill out N244 and send it off, because I wasn't able to include a postal order of £50 from abroad. By the time I got back I thought I should just pay the last few installments and then instead go the "pay&claim" route, ie. make a formal complaint to the council to make them aware that 'I know what they did' and if they don't reply to offer a solution I go straight to the small claims court?

 

However, it seems to be the general advice here that I should complete N244 instead? I find this form slightly confusing, especially

 

10. What information will you be relying on, in support of your application? the attached witness statement

the statement of case

the evidence set out in the box below

 

In my original form I ticked the last one and wrote a similar statement to my complaint letter to the council? How does a 'witness statement' differ from 'evidence set out in the box below'? and what is a 'statement of case'? are any of the other two better than the last?

 

What about a Chargeback? apparently I have 60 days to go to my bank and do a chargeback against the bailiffs?

 

Could I send my filled out N244 to someone to read before I send it off? I understand that this is pretty much my only good shot I have before things are getting 'nasty', so would like to avoid having superfluous information in there and make sure I tick all the boxes etc.

 

regards P

[Jamberson]

N244 is an appeal to the court, to spell out why the council should have accepted your witness statement. Be clear, to the point and methodical about the circumstances which led you to having to file a witness statement, and why it is only reasonable for the council to accept it (ie, all about the change of address, dates etc and where the Council were writing to).

 

I haven't seen your original witness statement, but it ought to have contained that same info - never mind - use the box option, and attach an extra sheet if you need to - and yes - please do post it up here before you send it.

[Jamberson]

N244 is an appeal to the court, to spell out why the council should have accepted your witness statement. Be clear, to the point and methodical about the circumstances which led you to having to file a witness statement, and why it is only reasonable for the council to accept it (ie, all about the change of address, dates etc and where the Council were writing to).

 

I haven't seen your original witness statement, but it ought to have contained that same info - never mind - use the box option, and attach an extra sheet if you need to - and yes - please do post it up here before you send it.

[bigkahuna666]

Dear Jamberson,

 

thanks a lot for your reply.

 

Attached is a picture of Section 3 and a copy and paste of my 'evidence set out in the box below' for Section 10.

 

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]58883[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

Section 10.

 

"Dear Court Officer, as I already explained in my original TE7&TE9 on the 26/03/15 this year I feel I have not been given any opportunity to resolve this matter. At the time of filing the TE7&TE9 I was unaware of what the actual reason was for not receiving any correspondence (NTO, CC, NOE etc.) from the LA/TEC, so my reasons given in the TE7 presumably didn't seem sufficient enough.

 

Therefore I started to investigate myself and after speaking to the TEC over the phone I found out 2 crucial pieces of information that should make you re-consider your previous decision:

 

It turns out that the warrant was issued with the TEC by the LA on the 06/10/14 (to my old address, XXX) and then re-issued on the 27/11/14 to my current address. I already lived at my current address since Feb 2014 and applied for an address change with the DVLA in around May 2014 and was issued with a new V5 on 20/06/14. The LA even replied to my original appeal to my current address on the 08/04/14, requesting further information in support of my appeal, but after my reply must have sent all further correspondence to my old address.

 

As far as I am aware the LA ARE permitted to apply to TEC for permission to AMEND the address on a warrant, BUT such applications may ONLY be made if the debtor's address had changed AFTER the date that the warrant had been issued. In that way it would rightly be assumed that the debtor would have received the Notice to Owner, Charge Certificate, Order for Recovery (and very lightly an initial letter from the bailiff).

 

However, if, as in my case, the debtor's address changed BEFORE the date of the warrant (receipt of Council X's initial response on the 08/04/14, bank statements, new V5 from 20/06/14 are available as evidence) then clearly I would not have been at that address (XXX) and therefore would have been unable to respond to any statutory notices.

Furthermore I believe that when a local authority applies to the TEC for permission to amend the address they are required to sign a form certifying that the address for the debtor had changed AFTER the date of the warrant.

In this particular case, the LA had already replied via letter to my initial appeal to my current address on the 08/04/14, therefore wouldn't have been able to certify that my address changed AFTER issuing the warrant (06/10/14) and therfore made a false statement.

If this was not serious enough, they then applied to TEC in November (27/11/14) for permission to amend the warrant and in doing so, appear to have been less than truthful when signing the application to amend the warrant.

And now it actually also becomes clear why I was not provided with a Statement Of Truth that was allegedly sent to me on the 20/04/15 after my TE7&TE9 have been refused, because when the TEC submitted the TE7 and TE9 to you, you are ONLY supposed to consider whether on my TE7 I had provided a GOOD ENOUGH REASON for sending the form late. As I had moved address the reason that I would have given would have been excellent. Unfortunately because I was unaware of the actual reason for why I hadn't received any letters, I was only able to say that I didn't receive any letters, but the LA on the other hand knew exactly why I hadn't received any letters, so therefore should have been accepting my out of time. Serious questions need to be raised as to WHY the LA have seen fit to ask TEC to refuse to grant permission to file a witness statement late when they were already aware of the situation and have known that I could not have possibly received any statutory notices.

In my opinion they refused and never sent a Statement of Truth, becaustheye knew that what they have done when re-issueing the warrant and making false statements was unlawful and instead tried to prey on the uninformed and re-introduced enforcement. Failure to provide the respondent with a copy of the Statement of Truth is reason alone to make a formal complaint to the Parliamentary Ombudsman.

 

I have been forced/made payment of £277 under duress to the DCA Newlyn, who are acting on the LA's behalf, which I should not have had to.

 

Furthermore I am forced to pay £50 to the HMCTS along with this application to review, so in total I am £327 out of pocket due to a procedural improperity and the Council acting unlawfully. I hope this matter will be resolved in an appropriate manner."

 

 

Please let me know if this is sufficient enough to send off. I look forward hearing your advice on this.

 

Best,

P

[bigkahuna666]

Dear Jamberson,

 

thanks a lot for your reply.

 

Attached is a picture of Section 3 and a copy and paste of my 'evidence set out in the box below' for Section 10.

 

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]58883[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

Section 10.

 

"Dear Court Officer, as I already explained in my original TE7&TE9 on the 26/03/15 this year I feel I have not been given any opportunity to resolve this matter. At the time of filing the TE7&TE9 I was unaware of what the actual reason was for not receiving any correspondence (NTO, CC, NOE etc.) from the LA/TEC, so my reasons given in the TE7 presumably didn't seem sufficient enough.

 

Therefore I started to investigate myself and after speaking to the TEC over the phone I found out 2 crucial pieces of information that should make you re-consider your previous decision:

 

It turns out that the warrant was issued with the TEC by the LA on the 06/10/14 (to my old address, XXX) and then re-issued on the 27/11/14 to my current address. I already lived at my current address since Feb 2014 and applied for an address change with the DVLA in around May 2014 and was issued with a new V5 on 20/06/14. The LA even replied to my original appeal to my current address on the 08/04/14, requesting further information in support of my appeal, but after my reply must have sent all further correspondence to my old address.

 

As far as I am aware the LA ARE permitted to apply to TEC for permission to AMEND the address on a warrant, BUT such applications may ONLY be made if the debtor's address had changed AFTER the date that the warrant had been issued. In that way it would rightly be assumed that the debtor would have received the Notice to Owner, Charge Certificate, Order for Recovery (and very lightly an initial letter from the bailiff).

 

However, if, as in my case, the debtor's address changed BEFORE the date of the warrant (receipt of Council X's initial response on the 08/04/14, bank statements, new V5 from 20/06/14 are available as evidence) then clearly I would not have been at that address (XXX) and therefore would have been unable to respond to any statutory notices.

Furthermore I believe that when a local authority applies to the TEC for permission to amend the address they are required to sign a form certifying that the address for the debtor had changed AFTER the date of the warrant.

In this particular case, the LA had already replied via letter to my initial appeal to my current address on the 08/04/14, therefore wouldn't have been able to certify that my address changed AFTER issuing the warrant (06/10/14) and therfore made a false statement.

If this was not serious enough, they then applied to TEC in November (27/11/14) for permission to amend the warrant and in doing so, appear to have been less than truthful when signing the application to amend the warrant.

And now it actually also becomes clear why I was not provided with a Statement Of Truth that was allegedly sent to me on the 20/04/15 after my TE7&TE9 have been refused, because when the TEC submitted the TE7 and TE9 to you, you are ONLY supposed to consider whether on my TE7 I had provided a GOOD ENOUGH REASON for sending the form late. As I had moved address the reason that I would have given would have been excellent. Unfortunately because I was unaware of the actual reason for why I hadn't received any letters, I was only able to say that I didn't receive any letters, but the LA on the other hand knew exactly why I hadn't received any letters, so therefore should have been accepting my out of time. Serious questions need to be raised as to WHY the LA have seen fit to ask TEC to refuse to grant permission to file a witness statement late when they were already aware of the situation and have known that I could not have possibly received any statutory notices.

In my opinion they refused and never sent a Statement of Truth, becaustheye knew that what they have done when re-issueing the warrant and making false statements was unlawful and instead tried to prey on the uninformed and re-introduced enforcement. Failure to provide the respondent with a copy of the Statement of Truth is reason alone to make a formal complaint to the Parliamentary Ombudsman.

 

I have been forced/made payment of £277 under duress to the DCA Newlyn, who are acting on the LA's behalf, which I should not have had to.

 

Furthermore I am forced to pay £50 to the HMCTS along with this application to review, so in total I am £327 out of pocket due to a procedural improperity and the Council acting unlawfully. I hope this matter will be resolved in an appropriate manner."

 

 

Please let me know if this is sufficient enough to send off. I look forward hearing your advice on this.

 

Best,

P

[Jamberson]

This is what I would say:

 

 

"Dear Court Officer, I have not been given any opportunity to resolve this matter.

 

I moved house on xxxx, my former address being xxxxx and my new (and still current) address being xxxxx. Proof of the change of address and dates are attached.

 

The warrant was issued on 06/10/14 to my old address. This follows logically from the fact that all prior correspondence from the council, including all the statutory notices they are required to serve on me, was also sent there, and so none of it ever reached me and no notices were served.

 

This appears to be solid grounds for filing an Out of Time Witness Statement, which I did - but for reasons unclear to me, the Council rejected my application, which is why I now appeal to you.

 

I have been forced to make payment of £277 under duress to the DCA Newlyn, who are acting on the LA's behalf, which I should not have had to.

 

Furthermore I am liable to pay £50 to the HMCTS along with this application, and so I would like to request that this fee be returned to me by way of compensation for costs.

[Jamberson]

This is what I would say:

 

 

"Dear Court Officer, I have not been given any opportunity to resolve this matter.

 

I moved house on xxxx, my former address being xxxxx and my new (and still current) address being xxxxx. Proof of the change of address and dates are attached.

 

The warrant was issued on 06/10/14 to my old address. This follows logically from the fact that all prior correspondence from the council, including all the statutory notices they are required to serve on me, was also sent there, and so none of it ever reached me and no notices were served.

 

This appears to be solid grounds for filing an Out of Time Witness Statement, which I did - but for reasons unclear to me, the Council rejected my application, which is why I now appeal to you.

 

I have been forced to make payment of £277 under duress to the DCA Newlyn, who are acting on the LA's behalf, which I should not have had to.

 

Furthermore I am liable to pay £50 to the HMCTS along with this application, and so I would like to request that this fee be returned to me by way of compensation for costs.

[bigkahuna666]

Hi everyone,

 

GREAT NEWS!! I have just had a response from the deputy district judge regarding my N244. 1. The application for leave to file a Statutory Declaration out of time/ Witness Statement to be GRANTED.

 

Thank you so much for your help everyone!

 

Do you know what the next steps will be? How am I going to get my £323 back from the bailiffs/LA now?

 

Will the LA also have received a response from the judge ordering them to pay back the money?

 

Below the order it says

 

You have 7 days to apply to set aside or vary the order under Part 23 Rule 10. You must file with the Court and serve on the other parties an application that sets out my reasons for the objection. A fee is payable upon the filing of the objection.

 

But I am guessing this only applies if the order was not the outcome I was hoping for?

 

Or do I now need to file another application and pay another fee just to continue this case?

 

Help would be much appreciated. FYI I received this letter on the 15th Sept, so the 7 day window would close tomorrow :/

 

Best wishes,

P

[bigkahuna666]

Hi everyone,

 

GREAT NEWS!! I have just had a response from the deputy district judge regarding my N244. 1. The application for leave to file a Statutory Declaration out of time/ Witness Statement to be GRANTED.

 

Thank you so much for your help everyone!

 

Do you know what the next steps will be? How am I going to get my £323 back from the bailiffs/LA now?

 

Will the LA also have received a response from the judge ordering them to pay back the money?

 

Below the order it says

 

You have 7 days to apply to set aside or vary the order under Part 23 Rule 10. You must file with the Court and serve on the other parties an application that sets out my reasons for the objection. A fee is payable upon the filing of the objection.

 

But I am guessing this only applies if the order was not the outcome I was hoping for?

 

Or do I now need to file another application and pay another fee just to continue this case?

 

Help would be much appreciated. FYI I received this letter on the 15th Sept, so the 7 day window would close tomorrow :/

 

Best wishes,

P

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

I've flagged your post for the site team and hope someone will be able to reply in time.

 

HB

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

I've flagged your post for the site team and hope someone will be able to reply in time.

 

HB

[citizenB]

I am going to copy this thread to the Bailiff forum, as I think you will have more chance of someone being able to advise.

[citizenB]

I am going to copy this thread to the Bailiff forum, as I think you will have more chance of someone being able to advise.

[Bailiff Advice]

Hi everyone,

 

GREAT NEWS!! I have just had a response from the deputy district judge regarding my N244. 1. The application for leave to file a Statutory Declaration out of time/ Witness Statement to be GRANTED.

 

Thank you so much for your help everyone!

 

Do you know what the next steps will be? How am I going to get my £323 back from the bailiffs/LA now?

 

Will the LA also have received a response from the judge ordering them to pay back the money?

 

Below the order it says

 

You have 7 days to apply to set aside or vary the order under Part 23 Rule 10. You must file with the Court and serve on the other parties an application that sets out my reasons for the objection. A fee is payable upon the filing of the objection.

 

But I am guessing this only applies if the order was not the outcome I was hoping for?

 

Or do I now need to file another application and pay another fee just to continue this case?

 

Whilst I am really pleased to hear that your application has been granted I am very disappointed to read your following comment:

"Or do I now need to file another application and pay another fee just to continue this case"?

This very same question is one that we receive so often and is testimony to the sheer confusion of the drafting of these responses from the court.

 

The simple answer is that you do not need to do anything. at all. The reference to having 7 days to either set aside or vary the order (under Part 23) means that either you OR the local authority may make an application to set aside the order. Such an application is actually quite rare.

 

The local authority should have also received a copy of the order at the same time that you did.

[unclebulgaria67]

Will they get the money back ?

[ploddertom]

Will they get the money back ?

 

 

If you read it , it says:

"The application for leave to file a Statutory Declaration out of time/ Witness Statement to be GRANTED."

 

At this time no monies will be refunded however if the application is successful - which previously has been denied - then that could be a different matter.

[unclebulgaria67]

If you read it , it says:

"The application for leave to file a Statutory Declaration out of time/ Witness Statement to be GRANTED."

 

At this time no monies will be refunded however if the application is successful - which previously has been denied - then that could be a different matter.

 

Thought this was the case, as i was a bit confused by BA's answer.

 

They asked about how to get their money back. If an application to set aside is rare and not likely to be accepted, was there any point in doing the statutory declaration ?