Simple Queries - Discussion thread

[Encrtia]

Hey there.

 

I'm just an average commuter via TFL, & would like to ask some questions.

 

1) Let's say I am in possession of an annual ticket for all zones. If I lose my ticket during transit or forget my Photo-Id proof to verify the ticket belongs to me - will I be able to avoid a fine later on? Or will the probability of being fined be almost certain?

 

2) If I'm entering my local station, & a series of RPI's are camping the entrance, are they supposed to be checking people entering the station, or those leaving?

-> I ask, for if my train is just hitting the platform, an intervention by them could lead to myself missing my morning half five train. Is that acceptable practice?

 

I may have some more questions, but that's all for now.

[Ros1609]

Answer to number 2 is always leave yourself plenty of time to be on the platform a few minutes before the train arrives

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

Has this happened to you recently?

 

I think if you have forgotten your photocard, you may be able to avoid problems by taking the card to the local station to prove you were entitled to use that ticket. If you've lost the ticket, I believe you can get a replacement, but would need to pay for that journey IIRC. Isn't this covered in the terms and conditions of your ticket?

 

It sounds as if there's more to this story. Why don't you tell us what's happened so we can give proper advice, rather than making us guess?

 

If you're trying to avoid a penalty or court case, trying to blame TfL is very unlikely to help you from what I've seen here.

 

Tell us the story and we'll do our best to help.

 

HB

[firstclassx]

If you travel, or attempt to travel without all of the travel documents being present (like a photocard), you can be issued a Penalty Fare or reported for prosecution. However, normally, on one occasion each year, one instance of forgetting your photocard or ticket is normally permitted, and the Penalty Fare etc cancelled, however, that is discretionary and will depend on your personal circumstances.

 

You can have your ticket checked at any time, including on entry, exit and during your journey. You must allow sufficient time, at least 5-10 minutes before departure is recommended. It is acceptable (and common).

[Encrtia]

@ Ros1609 & firstclassx,

 

In regards to allowing sufficient time; I'm not stating that it's advantageous to enter the station at the last second. I myself arrive 2 or so minutes prior to a known train departure each & every time (as Ros1609 would suggest), along with everybody else I know. A 10 minute suggestion, however, is unrealistic & unreasonably finicky due to the mere fact that these trains run every 10 minutes. Either way, this is merely subjective. Whereas 10 minutes to yourself & 'x' other people works for you - 2 minutes to myself & 'x' other people works just fine for us. There is no fault in either's perception. Expecting passengers to expect failures on the line or catering for surprise RPI visits by suggesting that for every train they ever wish to board, they should arrive for the train before the train they want to board in order to avoid missing it; is an unsatisfactory service that I hope you're not suggesting due to its ludicrous nature. I.e. unacceptable & wholly uncommon.

 

Eitherway - You seem to be assuming that buses always work flawlessly without hold-ups, alarm clocks never fail to wake people up & individuals never need to rush back due to forgetting their keys. Could we now please Address my Query, as opposed to Sidestepping it.

 

If one were to Unavoidably & Unintentionally enter the station just as the train is entering the platform, are RPI's permitted to halt Citizens of London commuting to their workplace (& otherwise contributing to the UK's economy) because of Ticket Verification ?

 

@ HoneyBee13,

You are mistaken - though I can sense your genuine interest to help if there were an issue. You must make a lot of people very grateful here . Personally, I’m in no such trouble, nor have I experienced any of my current scenarios. I have, of course, been stopped hundreds of times by RPIs, & harbour no resentment for a legitimate practice to crack down of fare-dodging - - - despite the fact that the only people they’re seemingly fining are the Honest folk confiding in them with their unintentional predicaments. Or at least so goes all of the articles flying around...

The situation of “what if” presented itself the other day, hence my post. As stated, two RPIs have set up camp at my local station. On the first encounter, I had to show my Ticket to the two gents. I was then asked to show my photo ID in addition (due to the fact that my Ticket clearly states it isn’t valid without an ID). The second day, I was also asked, to which I then comfortably displayed. On the third day, as I passed the RPI, I showed my annual Ticket before carrying on. I quickly realized as I walked down the corridor that they were calling out to me rather loudly. I stopped, politely came back & asked what was the matter. It was stated that I needed to show my ID again.

In a moment of logic, I diplomatically explained that the reason that the ID was implemented into the system, was to stop someone other than myself using my card. Since they know it’s my card now, surely they don’t need to keep proving it to themselves each & every time I pass. If I were to ever not bring my ID, it would illogically & unjustly lead to myself being fined, which makes no sense since they've already verified that this card does indeed belong to myself. Merely compassionate philosophy at this point, which was responded with patronizing looks & an otherwise mocking tone - but that's neither here nor there.

 

This is where I’m slightly disconcerted with the whole affair & TFL as a whole; the response was “Anytime you come here, I'm gonna check your ID. And when you forget it, you won't be allowed on the train & will be fined.” By their logic, the reason fines were implemented was to catch law-abiding citizens out, as opposed to punishing those that are intentionally abusing the system. Furthermore, they're undermining the sole service that the TFL provides - facilitation for workers (& others) to commute, which in turn stimulates the economy.

 

I showed my ID & felt somewhat let down that there was an absence of humanity. There are laws to be followed, & there's a reason why rules are in place. Forgetting the origins of these rulings & otherwise abusing them is something that has left a strong concern in my heart. But of course, one aggressive human makes not an aggressive species. Still, a very saddening experience causing a loss of faith in a system core to all too many Citizens. Rules are to be followed though...

 

But that's merely water under the bridge. Nothing to be concerned about here Reading what you've said, HoneyBee13, this is passable to know. I must confess that I do not have the terms & conditions by my side. Eitherway, does it not strike you as odd that you have to pay for something that you've already paid for, but haven't the proof at hand for the one day? Surely a refund (or negation of fine) for that fare/fine/on-the-go-bought-ticket is necessary after providing evidence that you've already Paid for the Right to use that facility, & for a year at that! Otherwise, the fine isn't about "fare dodging" as much as it is about "punishing those that mess up" or "punishing those that can't prove it on the day", both of which are Not why fines were implemented (or so I should hope). If there's only ever "one" possible exception to the rule per year, it sounds somewhat plausible..

 

My Question: If I've been caught to lack an ID/Ticket with my Ticket/ID (be it lost or forgotten), & stopped by an RPI, is there any circumstance that permits me to exit at the intended destination, with 100% assurance that I willn't incur further charges on top of an already paid for annual pass, once proven ? And so if paying for the fare on the day, a refund later on?

 

That was what I was primarily curious about. If actual logic is being applied to this system, or purely "Rules are to be followed, no exceptions." The latter of which isn't something that anyone here can outright contest, despite it putting honest-folk on the chopping block primarily, but it is certainly something that will deter people (looking at myself here currently) from using Public Transportation, opting instead to just drive everywhere due to a lack of genuine customer care & understanding.

 

According to my colleague, I sound like I've definitely been fined --- I haven't

[honeybee13]

According to my colleague, I sound like I've definitely been fined --- I haven't

 

Hello again. I'm confused about whether this is a discussion thread or not, could you confirm please?

 

I'll leave it to people like firstclassx to explain how railway laws work in practice.

 

HB

[Encrtia]

I'm confused about whether this is a discussion thread or not, could you confirm please?

 

I don't understand. Yes? What other types of threads are there?

[Stigy]

I don't understand. Yes? What other types of threads are there?

 

I'm sensing wit and slight, albeit friendly, sarcasm...

 

I won't quote your post previously as it's tad on the large side for my eyes

 

I think we need to be clear that Penalty Fares (not fines as only a court can levy these) are not intended for fare evaders, and are in fact intended for honest mistakes, as a deterrent to fare evasion. This means that it may be the best and most proportionate resolution for a forgotten ticket or photo card, would you not agree? Bear in mind this ruling is in place as staff don't know you and for all they know you could be lending your ticket to a friend to save them a pretty penny (even a photo card...A photo's likeness is only as good as the person doing the checking as I'm sure you appreciate!).

 

Also to add, it's perfectly acceptable for staff to inspect your ticket at any point during your journey, even at the start and refusal to show a ticket is a breach of Byelaw 18(2) of the National Railway Byelaws 2005 (TfL have their own set but for tube services they're much the same). Regarding them inspecting your ID on more than one consecutive occasion, how many people do you think that one member of staff sees every day? Would he or she definitely recognise you? Also what's to say you haven't loaned your ID out as I mentioned earlier?

 

As I believe has also been said, most operators allow one to forget their pass once or twice with either a nil-paid Unpaid Fare Notice of Penalty Fare Notice, of which will be cancelled when your produce the ticket. Of course, staff have their discretion too and may issue words of advice depending on the circumstances.

[honeybee13]

Thread title amended.

 

HB

[firstclassx]

Additionally, it's not the concern of the railway if your bus is late or you are behind schedule. If you can't afford to miss one specific train on a line that runs every 10 minutes, you have to reconsider your own responsibilities in life!

 

If you are talking about a London Overground or TfL Rail station, I think you will probably find automatic ticket barriers will be installed shortly, and these RPIs are collating various statistics and preparing customers to have tickets etc ready...

 

You simply cannot have less than 5 mins to get from a bus to a train platform, and that is assuming the bus stop is literally at the station entrance.

 

Part of being a commuter, so just start showing both parts of your ticket and manage the time a bit better!

 

Worst case you are 10 mins late because you didnt want to wake up earlier!

 

Staff have legal authority to physically prevent you access to, or otherwise remove you from railway premises (using reasonable force if required), if you breach, or attempt to breach Railway Byelaws- (failing to show a valid ticket is one of the Byelaws).

[Encrtia]

I'm sensing wit and slight, albeit friendly, sarcasm...

 

No sarcasm, purely genuine. I've not heard of a thread in a forum to not be discussion based.

[Encrtia]

Again, directly answering my questions seems to be a hefty ordeal somehow.

 

 

Targeting easy passages of filler text to argue which were otherwise irrelevant.

 

 

Providing unnecessary details was my own blunder, granted. The urge to waffle is too great.

 

I will give credit to Stigy for confirming that there are 1 or 2 "nil-paid Unpaid Fare Notice of Penalty Fare Notice" which can in turn be cancelled.

 

 

A very disappointing response to hear, especially when stating "most operators", but an answer nonetheless.

 

 

"Penalty Fares are in fact intended for honest mistakes, as a deterrent to fare evasion" is a blatant contradiction though,

as "honest mistakes" aren't "fare evaders", ergo a Penalty Fare doesn't apply, despite the fact that you've stated they are treated as such.

 

 

I'm not disbelieving you here, simply highlighting.

 

It is apparent, however, that my other question will not be answered at all by FirstClass,

whose unfortunate angle is that when contemplating a specific scenario

- as long as you plan everything hilariously in advance, the world will run smoothly; so there's no need to even answer my question.

 

 

In theory, do not concern yourself with what to do if a Tsunami hits,

just build the flood barriers & everything'll be a-ok.

 

 

No Tsunami could possibly spill over & kill hundreds of thousands of people to waste time contemplating evacuation plans if it does.

I can't stress how narrow-minded this is, but it is the nature of some to be so.

 

Thank you vm for confirming my concerns governing TFL though !

I'm glad I was educated of such crucial information prior to maximizing use of what I currently consider to be a risky service; to put it lightly.

 

This thread can now be closed if need be due to an OP's absence.

[dx100uk]

so the bottom lines is you are going your own merry way?

 

 

when p'haps if you actually told us 'what' is going on here

you might well get assistance in reducing or even nulling a potential criminal record and large fine.?

 

 

it normally turns out that such threads as yours

whereby simple or specific questions are asked

'because' you rightly or wrongly think its the way to 'investigate'

and get answers to your 'problem'

by reading peoples answers to your 'relevant questions'

it dorrect

its not.

 

 

tell us what has happened

and we'll help you...

 

 

pie in the sky questions might not be the right move me thinks....

 

 

HTH

 

 

dx

[firstclassx]

Just a commuter who lives on their own little planet where only their time matters....

 

A Penalty Fare is for "mistakes", "minor infractions" etc. BUT if you are being issued a Penalty Fare it means you have committed a criminal offence (Byelaw 17/18), and the railway is simply offering a cheaper, less serious way to resolve that error or oversight that you may have made. If you refused a Penalty Fare or were uncooperative, rude etc, you can be prosecuted instead, (max penalty £1000). A rail operator is actually doing you a favour if they issue you a Penalty Fare considering they can send you to court for the same reason.

 

Prosecution (MG11) is for "fare evasion", "repeat errors", "uncooperative customers", or those that are "rude or violent". Things like refusing to show a photocard or displaying a similar attitude to how the OP is acting on here would result in a court appearance.

 

It is entirely lost on you that the hilarity is on you! Not being able to have 10 minutes extra built into your commute to cover unforeseen circumstances is a complete joke- especially if you now know that you need to allow more time with ticket checks taking place. If you dont like the way things are, dont get the train!

[Stigy]

Again, directly answering my questions seems to be a hefty ordeal somehow.

 

 

Targeting easy passages of filler text to argue which were otherwise irrelevant.

 

 

Providing unnecessary details was my own blunder, granted. The urge to waffle is too great.

 

I will give credit to Stigy for confirming that there are 1 or 2 "nil-paid Unpaid Fare Notice of Penalty Fare Notice" which can in turn be cancelled.

 

 

A very disappointing response to hear, especially when stating "most operators", but an answer nonetheless.

 

 

"Penalty Fares are in fact intended for honest mistakes, as a deterrent to fare evasion" is a blatant contradiction though,

as "honest mistakes" aren't "fare evaders", ergo a Penalty Fare doesn't apply, despite the fact that you've stated they are treated as such.

 

 

I'm not disbelieving you here, simply highlighting.

 

It is apparent, however, that my other question will not be answered at all by FirstClass,

whose unfortunate angle is that when contemplating a specific scenario

- as long as you plan everything hilariously in advance, the world will run smoothly; so there's no need to even answer my question.

 

 

In theory, do not concern yourself with what to do if a Tsunami hits,

just build the flood barriers & everything'll be a-ok.

 

 

No Tsunami could possibly spill over & kill hundreds of thousands of people to waste time contemplating evacuation plans if it does.

I can't stress how narrow-minded this is, but it is the nature of some to be so.

 

Thank you vm for confirming my concerns governing TFL though !

I'm glad I was educated of such crucial information prior to maximizing use of what I currently consider to be a risky service; to put it lightly.

 

This thread can now be closed if need be due to an OP's absence.

 

I was referring to HB when I said about sarcasm

 

How is a Penalty Fare Notice being for honest mistakes a contradiction? It's quite clear, where a member of staff believes that a customer has not intentionally avoided their fare but doesn't have a ticket, a Penalty Notice is issued. If intentional acts are suspected, then the offender would or should be reported to the company's Prosecutions Department and the matter dealt with through the courts etc. Should intentional fare evasion be dealt with by a £20 Penalty Fare? (on national rail services) or £80? (on TfL services). No, because that's a small price to pay, surely? If somebody gets Penalty Fare'd once a month, it's cheaper than a season ticket!