gross misconduct, after crashing van

[doomsponge]

I can assure you i was remorseful and sorry in the investigatory. I offered an advanced driving course, and i was definitely shocked about how bad my driving was. I still feel that they had a duty of care to tell me just how bad it was, before i crashed, but thats by the by now.

The reasons im now looking for loopholes, is entirely because ive only been there 1 and half years. Im fully aware of how easy it is for them to sack me. And they have a rep for sacking people. Ideally i need to delay any possible sacking as long as possible so i can find a new job.

 

With regards to the disciplinary letter, i received it today, it was posted yesterday. The one handed to me was given to me yesterday at 520pm. There is no way either of those two options give me the 2 working days notice that there own policy sets out. As the meeting is tomorrow at 10am. Can i ask that they either drop the meeting, or postpone it based on this?

[SabreSheep]

The short answer is you can ask

 

BUT without the ability to take them to tribunal they could just decide to proceed anyway

[Emmzzi]

I can assure you i was remorseful and sorry in the investigatory.

 

Are you sure? Because " I dont really think this is detailed enough "a word" to be used agaisnt me, and i said as much." sounds like arguing the toss to me. I'm not trying to have a pop, I just think your perspective is off.

[altobelli]

You really need to ask for all the evidence they have. Its your right in order that you can defend yourself at a disciplinary meeting, thei dea that you can't see evidence against you because you might use it to lie is preposterous.

 

 

And yes, you should have been told beforehand if your driving was dangerous on 'numerous occasions', for the safety of the public if nothing else.

 

 

Be prepared to defend yourself at a meeting, don't go in with all guns blazing, but don't grovel and agree with everything that they say either, otherwise you're making it easier for them to dismiss you.

[SabreSheep]

Altobelli, I disagree with the dont grovel advice

 

Remember they can dismiss WITHOUT REASON as OP has less than 2 years service.

 

The situation here is "not about making it harder or easier" to dismiss

 

It is about Making it in the company's interest to keep the OP on when they actually can just let go and save the hassle.

[altobelli]

Its a common misconception that an employer can dismiss without reason if an employee has less than two year's service. In fact, certain areas such as discrimination are protected and don't fall within the two year rule.

 

 

I would never recommend going to an investigation or disciplinary and grovelling, its bad for self-respect and is counter-productive - if the investigation is an honest one and the OP goes in grovelling and taking blame for thins which aren't his fault, he will be left without a leg to stand on if he then tries to argue his case or if the investigation goes against him and he wants to appeal.

 

 

doomsponge, its an investigation, so it really is about presenting a defence that makes it hard for them to dismiss. I'd concentrate on defending the allegations against you, ask for evidence where necessary, e.g. what is the evidence you weren't using a hands free. Apologise where you're in the wrong, and don't go in all guns blazing, but don't bow and scrape either.

[doomsponge]

update: Hi again. Bit a big update:

 

Basically they gave me a final written warning. and wanted to charge me £1330 to repair the van.

 

I couldn't face going back, and went off with stress, then i resigned, and found a new job.

 

They have since sent a letter demanding that i pay £1800 or they will take me to small claims court.

 

"do to your sudden resignation.....money owed to the company below:

 

total for tools and drill: £397.59

overtaken holiday entilment: £117.50

lost equipemnt: £10

damage to the van £1330"

 

they also want to change my last working day: "you have not been in work since 16 june due to sickness, i would like to inform you that 16th june will be noted as your final working day and you will not receive any payment from the company after that date". I was off sick from after the disciplinary meeting with stress, basically i couldn't face going back. Can they unilaterally chnage my resignation date to avoid paying SSP?

 

As far as im aware my contract said they would take any owed money from the last wage, but nothing about any shortfall and what would happen.

 

For a small court claim they need to prove that the money is a material loss, dont they? As he £1300 for the van was basically picked from thin air, and didnt take into account any insurance or real cost to them. Can they win?

 

ive written a replay that basically asked for full and detailed evidence of the money they think i owe.

 

 

 

 

thanks for any help

[Emmzzi]

1. no to date change, also note holiday pay accrues

2. yes they need to show loss so they should have claimed on insurance. they may however have a huge excess!

3. good.

[ericsbrother]

if they say your last day was the 16th then that means they dismissed you without notice on that date rather than you resigning. This means they owe you payment in lieu of notice as they havent followed the proper procedures. A small point but added to the other questions regarding their claims probably enough to make them want to settle rather than tough it out at court.

[SabreSheep]

Its a common misconception that an employer can dismiss without reason if an employee has less than two year's service. In fact, certain areas such as discrimination are protected and don't fall within the two year rule.

 

Correct as pointed out before. It would have to be discrimination under a protected characteristic under the single equality act. This is not relevant here.

 

I would never recommend going to an investigation or disciplinary and grovelling, its bad for self-respect and is counter-productive - if the investigation is an honest one and the OP goes in grovelling and taking blame for thins which aren't his fault, he will be left without a leg to stand on if he then tries to argue his case or if the investigation goes against him and he wants to appeal.

 

Noone has asked him to take blame for something that was not his fault.

 

 

doomsponge, its an investigation, so it really is about presenting a defence that makes it hard for them to dismiss. I'd concentrate on defending the allegations against you, ask for evidence where necessary, e.g. what is the evidence you weren't using a hands free. Apologise where you're in the wrong, and don't go in all guns blazing, but don't bow and scrape either.

 

..

[doomsponge]

this is the letter that i sent:

 

Thank you for letter dated 6th July.

 

I do not recognise any of those amounts as owed by me. As I’m sure you would agree it would be foolish to pay any money before I have proof that it is owed.

 

Could you send me a fully detailed breakdown of these amounts and how they have accrued? Could you also send proof that I am contractually obliged to pay any outstanding amounts?

 

As I’m sure you will appreciate, it may take time for me to work through the documents that you send, so I would expect your surprisingly short deadline, to be extended.

 

Also, as far as I’m aware, you are unable to change my resignation date unilaterally, please use the correct date for any holiday accrual calculations, and when working out Statuary Sick Pay.

[altobelli]

..

 

1) It is relevant because you said "Remember they can dismiss WITHOUT REASON as OP has less than 2 years service". This is the common misconception I referred to.

 

2) Yes, you did.

[altobelli]

this is the letter that i sent:

 

Thank you for letter dated 6th July.

 

I do not recognise any of those amounts as owed by me. As I’m sure you would agree it would be foolish to pay any money before I have proof that it is owed.

 

Could you send me a fully detailed breakdown of these amounts and how they have accrued? Could you also send proof that I am contractually obliged to pay any outstanding amounts?

 

As I’m sure you will appreciate, it may take time for me to work through the documents that you send, so I would expect your surprisingly short deadline, to be extended.

 

Also, as far as I’m aware, you are unable to change my resignation date unilaterally, please use the correct date for any holiday accrual calculations, and when working out Statuary Sick Pay.

 

Good response, they're probably just trying their luck, just make sure that you clearly dispute any liability in any other correspondence you have with them.

[renegadeimp]

1) It is relevant because you said "Remember they can dismiss WITHOUT REASON as OP has less than 2 years service". This is the common misconception I referred to.

 

2) Yes, you did.

 

Pretty sure they meant without reason as long as it isnt discriminatory

[altobelli]

Pretty sure they meant without reason as long as it isnt discriminatory

Possibly, but its unclear.

[SabreSheep]

It should be clear, im offering advice based upon the information provided by the OP.

OP has not offered up any discrimination based on a protected characteristic and therefore mentioning ti is irrelivent to this case.

 

Remember this is a thread to help the OP, not to debate irrelevant material

[doomsponge]

hi guys.

 

got a letter back, and the figures they have are all wrong, in there favor...... Even just looking at the amounts i have paid, and the amounts originally owed they have messed up the final amount. e.g 5-3=4

 

 

Ive written a letter asking for much more detailed info on it all, based on there mistakes, but should i just leave it and hope that if/when they take me to court the judge takes one look at there shoddy maths and throws the whole thing out?

 

cheers

[SabreSheep]

Thread tidied

 

both my and other irreverent posts removed to enable thread to remain on topic

[altobelli]

It should be clear, im offering advice based upon the information provided by the OP.

OP has not offered up any discrimination based on a protected characteristic and therefore mentioning ti is irrelivent to this case.

 

 

 

Your statement is misleading - you say "Remember they can dismiss WITHOUT REASON as OP has less than 2 years service". As you know, this is incorrect, and could have the effect of misleading the OP or anyone else reading the thread.

 

Remember this is a thread to help the OP, not to debate irrelevant material

 

 

My aim is to help the OP, and ensuring that information posted is important, not 'irrelevant material'. Also, it is very important not to be overly negative when posting on this forum as it can have the effect of knocking the OP's confidence. Remember, people come here for support and advice, not to be put down or given the impression that they have less options than they do in reality.

[altobelli]

Thread tidied

 

both my and other irreverent posts removed to enable thread to remain on topic

 

 

None of my posts were irrelevant, they were correcting a misleading post you made and responding to you follow up posts where you talked about 'irrelevant debates', 'splitting hairs' and 'giving genuine help elsewhere'. You made overly negative posts in relation to the OP's case, which can have the effect of knocking their confidence. I don't know if this was deliberate or not, but please consider the OP when posting - it is a problem on the site and is bad for users. Your approach is no way to deal with criticism or to engage in an argument which you are losing.

 

 

Don't remove any more of my posts, I want another moderator to cover this thread - it takes time and effort to create them, and removing something just because you don't agree with it (and selectively removing my posts to keep your response in place) is a misuse of the moderator function.

[altobelli]

hi guys.

 

got a letter back, and the figures they have are all wrong, in there favor...... Even just looking at the amounts i have paid, and the amounts originally owed they have messed up the final amount. e.g 5-3=4

 

 

Ive written a letter asking for much more detailed info on it all, based on there mistakes, but should i just leave it and hope that if/when they take me to court the judge takes one look at there shoddy maths and throws the whole thing out?

 

cheers

 

 

Ok, finally can address the question you posted yesterday, hopefully my post won't be deleted for disagreeing with a moderator!

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you've done the right thing, I think and hope that they are just chancing their arm, I would advise just to wait and see what they come back with. The onus is on them to respond now, and if they do proceed they should write you a formal letter before raising their claim.

[citizenB]

None of my posts were irrelevant, they were correcting a misleading post you made and responding to you follow up posts where you talked about 'irrelevant debates', 'splitting hairs' and 'giving genuine help elsewhere'. You made overly negative posts in relation to the OP's case, which can have the effect of knocking their confidence. I don't know if this was deliberate or not, but please consider the OP when posting - it is a problem on the site and is bad for users. Your approach is no way to deal with criticism or to engage in an argument which you are losing.

 

 

Don't remove any more of my posts, I want another moderator to cover this thread - it takes time and effort to create them, and removing something just because you don't agree with it (and selectively removing my posts to keep your response in place) is a misuse of the moderator function.

 

If any moderator feels a need to remove a post or posts because they are either off topic or don't comply with site rules, then they will do so. A reason why posts were removed will be put on the thread, or if necessary sent by private message.

 

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site rules - 3.9

 

 

3.9 The Group reserves the right to delete or edit any thread/post for legal or any other reasons.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?9-Forum-rules.-Please-read-these-before-posting

 

[SabreSheep]

Final warning, this is not the area to debate how the forum works. You do not tell the site team what they can or cannot do.

 

OFF TOPIC POSTS REMOVED

 

The avenue to complain about my actions is listed above. Follow that procedure or go elsewhere.

 

Regards

 

SS

[SabreSheep]

Thread closed due to constant derailing attempts

 

OP can mail site team to have it reopened when they need further advice or have something to add to the thread.