Complicated LLoyds bank debt - now issued repo proceedings on last asset

[hesanmp]

i recently requested a SAR on my lloyds tsb accounts as i needed info on the valuation that was carried out on my home in order to give security for a loan.

 

 

i have received a copy of the file which included a copy of the valuation,

but even though it refers to an instruction letter from the bank to the valuer,

the instruction letter is not in the file.

 

 

it is not even attached to the valuer's report even though in his report he comments

'instruction letter of xxx 2004 attached appendix A'

 

is there anything more i can do to fro lloyds to disclose the instruction letter?

[unclebulgaria67]

If the valuer has handled your data, you can make an SAR request to the valuer for a copy of the instruction letter. Perhaps LTSB don't have a copy, as it was just a system generate template letter, copies of which they don't keep.

[hesanmp]

thanks ub, the problem i have is that i have learnt that my relationship manager instructed the valuation. the documentation attached to the valuation report includes plans showing the land which accompanies the property, the problem is the land did not belong to the property!! yet the bank asked the valuer to value the house and the land.

[unclebulgaria67]

Yes a bank will always ask a valuer to value the house and 'its' land. The valuer should have checked what land was included with the house. Why would a bank ask a valuer to put a value on land that belongs to someone else ?

 

I would suggest that the valuer had made a mistake, as they had not checked the land registry information prior to providing their valuation information to the bank. If you have a problem with this then take it up with LTSB, who perhaps may wish to conduct an up to date valuation, if they think one is needed. LTSB will have the wrong valuation on their records, which they may not be happy with.

[hesanmp]

hi ub, the problem is the valuer had a land registry plan of the house and garden. it was the bank who sent the valuer additional plans of land which were to be valued with the house and garden!

[unclebulgaria67]

hi ub, the problem is the valuer had a land registry plan of the house and garden. it was the bank who sent the valuer additional plans of land which were to be valued with the house and garden!

 

Sorry I don't get it. If I were a valuer instructed by a bank, I would not value any land that the bank customer did not own and was not planning to own. It is a error by the bank and the valuer for not checking.

 

The valuers office will hopefully have the information that the bank sent them, but it may take some time to retrieve, as they may have sent it to an offsite storage company. You would probably need to send them an SAR paying the £10 max fee, as it will cost them more than that to obtain the box the file is in from the storage company. I suspect that it is much more likely the valuers office would have the banks instruction letter and land chart they may have sent, than the bank.

 

Frustrating, but the only way you will get the exact information is from the valuers office.

[hesanmp]

thanks ub. the problem i have is the bank gave me a large loan on the back of the incorrect (enhanced value) valuation. when the property was finally sold there is a large shortfall to the bank!!

[Guest]

then, you may need to act re their 'negligence'/'mistake'? have you complained officially to the bank? perhaps re irresponsible lending? but, would've a corrected valuation affected the value of the loan? how much roughly is the loan?

Edited December 2, 2012 by Ford

[hesanmp]

not complained yet. bank debt is now with recoveries and balance owing is £150,000, they have other security, but there is no equity. since this issue has come to light the bank have said they will review the situation in one years time.

[unclebulgaria67]

thanks ub. the problem i have is the bank gave me a large loan on the back of the incorrect (enhanced value) valuation. when the property was finally sold there is a large shortfall to the bank!!

 

Perhaps I am being a bit dim, but you would have been advanced a higher amount that the actual value of the property you were buying. Either you overpaid the seller of the property or you had this excess money at the time. So I am not sure why you think this has any bearing on the shortfall, apart from irresponsible lending on the back of a false valuation, as Ford suggests. I don't think you will get anywhere with that, otherwise many Northern Rock mortgage holders would be making the same complaint.

 

The shortfall is purely the difference between the outstanding mortgage plus costs and what the house sold for.

[hesanmp]

ub, this has nothing to do with northern rock. this was to lloyds after the purchase, they carried out their own valuation and based their loan on their own valuation!

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

I know you have at least one other thread running. Is this problem anything to do with your other thread please? Here's a link in case it's helpful.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?372817-Assignment-of-Debt.

 

HB

[unclebulgaria67]

I know that it has nothing to do with NR. I was just pointing out that being lent too much is not something that you are likely to be successful in complaining about to the FOS or in court.

 

What did you do with the extra lending over an about what you paid for the house ?

[hesanmp]

honeybee

 

no this is totally separate!!!

[hesanmp]

there was no extra lending, it was consolidating existing overdrafts and a guarantee for my ltd company. basically i wasn't paid by a customer (£80K) and their had been a solicitor's undertaking to my bank for that amount. the undertaking could not be performed so i had to give a charge for that amount.

[unclebulgaria67]

So it reduced some other overdrafts and acted as a guarantee for your company. What would your position have been, without this valuation error ?

 

Are you saying that the Lloyds relationship manager did this deliberately or by mistake ?

 

I think I would get hold of the missing info from the valuers office and make a complaint to Lloyds Head Office about the conduct of this relationship manager.

[Guest]

ditto, what would've been the position re a correct valuation? plus, the loan amount has been 'spent', acquiescence, when was there knowledge? complain to loyds.

have you pursued that failed undertaking?

[hesanmp]

it would have meant that if the valuation had been correct, there was every likelihood that when the security was sold, i could have cleared my banks lending.

 

it just seems odd that my relationship manager or someone at lloyds could have instructed the valuer to add on land to their security for an enhanced value. when you submit a separate plan coupled with the land registry plan i hardly feel it call fall in the category of 'a mistake.

 

finally on the lloyds valuation checklist which is signed off by my manager before it goes to securities, the box which reads 'the description of the property/land/acreage agrees with the instructions submitted to the securities centre' has been left blank. . the plan that was used for security was just the house and small garden!!

[Guest]

ok, then complain on that para 1 above etc, include any irresponsible lending.

when i mention 'mistake' it is an equitable legal option for redress.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Ford

[hesanmp]

the problem is the undertaking was superseeded by the security given to the bank. it was the same solicitor who perfected the security as gave the undertaking to the bank.

[Guest]

getting more complicated

your solicitor? still could poss pursue this failed undertaking?

[unclebulgaria67]

There is a potentially serious accusation against the Lloyd Relationship manager that could also affect the valuer. You are in affect saying that they may have deliberately included land that was nothing to do with you in a valuation report, to underwrite loans to cover overdrafts and a guarantee for your company. Could this be considered fraud ? Possibly. It would certainly be seen as gross misconduct by Lloyds which could lead to the relationship manager losing their job if still employed in financial services and I don't think the FSA would be happy.

 

I think you need to find out the truth about what happened and I would suggest an SAR to the valuers office for all of the paperwork relating to the valuation they provided.

 

If Lloyds are chasing for the shortfall, make a complaint in writing to their head office and ask for an investigation to be carried out.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Reading through this my opinion is that specialist professional advice should be sought immediatel, as theresems to serious ramifications, including fraud.

 

Possibly not suitable for discussion on a public forum.

[hesanmp]

ub, thanks for that.

 

 

as i indicated above lloyds are not pushing for the shortfall as of yet.

they are relying on other security they have.

 

 

i have started asking questions to lloyds through their recoveries section,

i am in contact with a senior case official who has herself searched the files

and she has said she can't find the valuer's instructions.

 

 

just for information purposes the property was originally valued in 2004 (full physical inspection),

two further drive by valuations were also carried out for example in 2007 which cost me £411.25.

 

 

in the 2007 valuation checklist the lloyds manager for the 1st time wrote

'valuation includes paddock which is not charged to ourselves and as such covering letter attached from valuer

reducing the value by £10k.

this was a small paddock not attached to the house which had been included in the 2004 valuation.

in his comments there is no mention of the further 2 acres attached to the house's garden!!

[hesanmp]

ah brigadier (nice tash).....

 

i will seek advice, but of course that is costly. will it harm any potential claim/action i have against lloyds if i write to them initially asking questions, maybe on a WP basis?