Rent issue for person not having an income...

[epsom]

Hi,

I am writing on behalf of a friend of mime, who has a problematic issue regarding rent.

 

In a nutshell, this is the story:

 

My friend is unemployed and is living alone in a housing association flat ( has been for many years), and is receiving benefits...some for a health issue.

 

She has her rent paid by the council....BUT, she has a friend from overseas who is living there also.

The friend is NOT claiming any benefits, but did have a small income from a home based job until a few months ago.

That has now stopped.

 

The friend comes and goes over to Ireland every now and again, so is not a permanent resident in the one bed flat.

 

However, the council (who knew about the job she had before), insist she has to pay towards the rent, or my friend will have her housing benefit cut by a large percentage.

 

Now, my friend has told the council all the above and asked HOW she can pay or NEEDS to pay having no income at all and is just a friend visiting for periods.

 

The council have asked for the bank statements of my friend's friend, and proof that she is no longer working at the home based job.

 

Does the council have any right to ask for this? also, do they have any right to demand that a visitor (although a long term one, periodically) pays towards the rent WITHOUT HER HAVING AN INCOME?.

 

The flat is a housing association property and not a council dwelling.

 

Any advice would be gratefully received, as this is rather urgent.

 

Many thanks in advance.

[SabreSheep]

It appears the council think the friend is residing there.

 

Under that basis, the friend has to pay their portion of accomidation costs. This is so that the council are not subsidising her living.

 

The friend has to pay you rent for the amount you have cut or you find the money yourself.

 

Maybe short term lodging agreement is the way to go. The friend will need to pay you OR claim benefits in her own right.

[antone]

Yes, this is called a "non dependent charge", and applies in certain circumstances where another person lives with the benefit claimant. Broadly speaking, a non-dependent is another adult who is not the partner of the claimant, is not their dependent child, and does not have a separate rental agreement with the landlord. The amount of any non-dep charge is based on the income of the non-dep.

 

The first question would be, I suppose, can your friend demonstrate that her friend has another home which would count as their primary residence?

[epsom]

It appears the council think the friend is residing there.

 

Under that basis, the friend has to pay their portion of accomidation costs. This is so that the council are not subsidising her living.

 

The friend has to pay you rent for the amount you have cut or you find the money yourself.

 

Maybe short term lodging agreement is the way to go. The friend will need to pay you OR claim benefits in her own right.

 

Yes..they THINK that, but as I say, she is NOT residing there and has signed no contract of any kind.

She is a friend who stays over sometimes and goes back to Ireland every now and again.

As far as I know, there is no requirement for a person to claim any benefits.

 

My friend has tried to explain this to the council, but it seems they don't WANT to listen.

 

If you have any type of response that my friend can send to the council, via letter, it would be appreciated.

At the moment, all her communications by telephone etc seem to fall on deaf ears.

 

Many thanks for your reply.

[epsom]

Yes, this is called a "non dependent charge", and applies in certain circumstances where another person lives with the benefit claimant. Broadly speaking, a non-dependent is another adult who is not the partner of the claimant, is not their dependent child, and does not have a separate rental agreement with the landlord. The amount of any non-dep charge is based on the income of the non-dep.

 

The first question would be, I suppose, can your friend demonstrate that her friend has another home which would count as their primary residence?

 

Well, my friend's friend has a home in Ireland, which she visits periodically.

She is not claiming ANY benefits from the state, therefore saving them money.....and as far as I am aware, there is no requirement to claim benefits if the person chooses not to.

[SabreSheep]

You are correct, there is no obligation to claim benefits.

 

However there is no obligation for the LA to subsides accommodation.

 

How often and for how long are they staying for? You are making out that they return to their country once in a blue moon.

[SabreSheep]

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/housing_benefit_and_local_housing_allowance/applying_for_housing_benefit/housing_benefit_when_other_adults_live_in_your_home

 

This better explains it.

 

"Could pay rent"

 

If they cannot pay rent then they need to find a way to pay rent. "Even if" that means benefits.

 

As for saving money? They are not. Your accommodation is being subsidized by the LA by way of housing benefit. It is therefore only fair that they contribute if they are of working age.

[antone]

Well, my friend's friend has a home in Ireland, which she visits periodically.

She is not claiming ANY benefits from the state, therefore saving them money.....and as far as I am aware, there is no requirement to claim benefits if the person chooses not to.

 

Having a home which she "visits periodically" may not be sufficient - the question is "where is her primary residence?" As Sabresheep points out, non dependent adults are generally expected to make a contribution towards the rent.

[citizenB]

Sounds to me as though the "visitor/friend" is treating the flat as a 2nd home and should quite rightly contribute the rent in those circumstances.

 

Over the year, approximately how many nights does the visitor spend at the flat ?

[epsom]

Wow!

 

Do you all work for councils?

 

She is not receiving any benefit's from anyone and goes back to Ireland every few months. She supports herself through her own family, who send money now and again.

 

Maybe my friends dog, cat and budgie should start paying rent--after all, they are PERMANENT residents.

 

If she ware receiving any kind of state benefit or was a permanent resident, i would agree with you all---however, she is just a friend who visits.

 

Better watch out for any visitors you may have, people----those snoops may get carried away!

[citizenB]

Sorry, you are missing the point.

 

It is irrelevant whether or not the visitor is receiving benefits.

 

The person whose home (s)he is crashing out at, is !

 

The Council has provided a flat to the tenant and is subsidising the rent - the tenant is then allowing someone to regularly stay over at presumably no charge.

 

The Council is then saying to themselves, is this visitor contributing to housekeeping/rent (especially if they are staying very regularly, which appears to be the case) and if so - then the tenant can in fact afford to pay more for their rent and we wont have to subsidise them.

 

If the visitor is not paying rent/housekeeping - then why not ? Especially as they appear to be getting free board and lodgings via the subsidised tenant ??

[citizenB]

And.. no, none of the responders to your thread work for councils. They are volunteers who give their free time generously.

 

It is interesting to notice that those people who ask for advice and don't get the answer they were hoping for, always seem to turn on the people who have provided their time and knowledge to respond.

[epsom]

Sorry, you are missing the point.

 

It is irrelevant whether or not the visitor is receiving benefits.

 

The person whose home (s)he is crashing out at, is !

 

The Council has provided a flat to the tenant and is subsidising the rent - the tenant is then allowing someone to regularly stay over at presumably no charge.

 

The Council is then saying to themselves, is this visitor contributing to housekeeping/rent (especially if they are staying very regularly, which appears to be the case) and if so - then the tenant can in fact afford to pay more for their rent and we wont have to subsidise them.

 

If the visitor is not paying rent/housekeeping - then why not ? Especially as they appear to be getting free board and lodgings via the subsidised tenant ??

 

No, in fact the visitor has enough only for her own food while she stays there...the money provided to her by her relatives in Ireland. So she cannot pay any rent/ housekeeping out of nothing.

 

How long a sustained period with what length of time between visits, is the difference between being a "lodger" and a "visitor?.

 

And, yes, I am very grateful for everyone's time and effort in responding--and my "does everyone work for the councils"...quip was not meant to be taken as a serious question.

[SabreSheep]

At the end of the day, the council and the law expect her to pay something towards the rent.

 

IF she is unemployed, then she has to claim benefits to make that contribution, just like anyone else would.

 

Im sorry you are not getting the advice you seek. I posted a link to SHELTER, which support the advice being given here. They are an independent charity.

 

You have a choice

 

Create a lodging agreement (with permission form the HA) that would allow her to claim housing benefit independently in order to help meet the shortfall. (Assuming she qualified) OR she needs to find employment to cover the shortfall.

 

Alternatively, you can say she is not living there and say she no longer visits. This runs the BIG risk of you being discovered and prosecuted for benefit fraud AND having an overpayment to pay back

 

OR

 

She has to find her own accommodation so that it does not impact on your benefits.

 

Im sorry this is not the news you want to hear BUT we would not be helping you by telling you things that were untrue

[id6052]

a lodger is a person who has a commercial agreement to pay money to stay

 

a non-dependant is a person who does not have a commercial agreement to pay money to stay - these are usually adult relatives or friends

[antone]

No, in fact the visitor has enough only for her own food while she stays there...the money provided to her by her relatives in Ireland. So she cannot pay any rent/ housekeeping out of nothing.

 

How long a sustained period with what length of time between visits, is the difference between being a "lodger" and a "visitor?.

 

And, yes, I am very grateful for everyone's time and effort in responding--and my "does everyone work for the councils"...quip was not meant to be taken as a serious question.

 

As id6052 points out, the friend's status as a lodger depends on there being a commercial rent arrangement in place.

 

There is no specific time limit on how long a "visitor" is allowed to stay, but if a person lives with an HB claimant for extended periods of time and is not able to demonstrate that his or her primary residence is elsewhere then really, that person is not a visitor: he or she is a resident.

[stevemLS]

Or perhaps one or both of them could consider getting a job and paying their own way?

[epsom]

Or perhaps one or both of them could consider getting a job and paying their own way?

 

Always some T**T who think's he's being clever on some forum.

 

Firsty, it is NONE of your business as to the minutiae of any case that is on here--unless the poster tells you all the details.

Secondly, READ the ****ing post----I did say the occupier was receiving part benefit through HEALTH reasons---and unless I specified otherwise, DON'T ASSUME--OK?

 

I was asking for a very specific reason----which I certainly won't divulge here on this forum.

So DON'T try to be a smart arse--because it's not smart for one thing--and it's a little childish.

 

As regards the other replies...thank you all.....they were RELEVANT to the post.

Edited April 21, 2015 by honeybee13
Language.

[antone]

Or perhaps one or both of them could consider getting a job and paying their own way?

 

That's completely unhelpful. Posts like this are not welcome on the Benefits Forum.