council tax/benefit urgent help pleeease :\

[suprashep]

hi guys and girls, thank you for taking the time to read this in advance..

 

this is quite a long story, i will try to keep it as short as i possibly can without missing anything out.

i met my now partner a few years ago while going through quire a lot of financial difficulties, which at present are still ongoing.

 

at the time, i worked away for the majority of the week and only being home a couple of days. i lived alone.

 

we met, got on great she had a one and half year old daughter. for a very long time, she was not willing to make us a permanent item or such, having a great deal of trust issues due to physical and mental abuse from her daughters father, which was understandable. eventually came the point i could not afford to keep my own place, so gave it up, my parents, due to my younger sister, would not let me use their address, but kirsty said it would be ok to use hers as we had known each other a while and any mail and such would be safe.

 

i did stay with her on occasions, along with staying with my parents when needed as they both have cancer, so i was needed quite often. a few years later, i found a job closer, but, as it meant not working away anymore, and kirsty still not finding a job, i had to "sofa surf" as i wasnt prepared to put her and her young dependant in jeapordy of losing their home. she finally found a small part time job local to her in a bar, 3 nights a week, and having no family close to her, was able to rely on myself to go to her place of work, collect her daughter and a set of keys, and babysit for her.

 

then, she gets a letter stating she is to be interviewed for benefit fraud, she attended this, the whole while feeling bullied and talked down to, and unable to put her own points accross, they where very rude to her.

During this interview, the showed her MY bank statements (which show no evidence of me contributing to her household whatsoever) but apparently as was evidence enough?!?! and that my car was insured at her address (to insure a car an address is needed, and as i worked away, her drive was a safe place to keep my car).

 

no photographic evidence available to the contrary nor of me living there which i wasn't.

only one witness statement was read out to her, from her previous employer (which has come to light is now being sent down for a 3rd time for fraud) which actually contradicts their claim. in this statement,

 

in her statement, knowing us for around 6 months, she states we where a couple living together.... yet i would collect my partners daughter from her place of work, and a set of keys to gain access to her home (sometimes get all the way to her home and realise i had no keys and have to go back, also stated in witness statement).

 

my partner told them of my sofa surfing and being homeless, they asked for names, names given, then stated would interview these people and myself....

 

between ourselve now have 41k in debts to be paid, and not one person including myself have been interviewed except kirsty.

 

myself and my partner are on low wages (her on only 34 hours per week). all of this is causing a lot of mental stress to us both, and as you read this, she has been sent home AGAIN as its now causing physical stress to her, causing her problems at work, (she has now found a job as a carer) and in her state is unable to carry out her job to the standard needed.

 

today the cause was an AOE for £19300.91 for housing benefit.

neither me nor her can ever be able to pay 41k which will lead us both and her daughter to end up on the street as far as we are concerned.

 

The AOE comes with no court order or anything. just a bog standard printed letter. no liability order.

we have also received a letter each stating bailiffs will be coming for 10k of c/t, no court stamp, no wet signature.

 

I am positive ive missed things out, but when i remember will update

many thanks in advance

 

apologies, i meant to state, i have no idea what to do, and im useless at letters or correspondence and have never had this to deal with, i myself am still in financial difficulty, and this is putting a huge strain on our family unit.

just to point out, we went into the council office stating these debts are unrecognized, i was put onto the phone to one of the interviewers, who in turn was not interested in the slightest and put the phone down

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG. The guys should be along later with advice for you.

 

I've edited some paragraphs into your post to make it easier to read and also removed the name that you mentioned. It's better to keep this off your thread in case it causes problems.

 

My best, HB

[suprashep]

Hello and welcome to CAG. The guys should be along later with advice for you.

 

I've edited some paragraphs into your post to make it easier to read and also removed the name that you mentioned. It's better to keep this off your thread in case it causes problems.

 

My best, HB

 

ah thank you so much, like i said, new to all this, but many thanks HB

[id6052]

when was the overpayment decision made?

 

did your partner appeal? what was the outcome?

 

did the council prosecute?

[suprashep]

when was the overpayment decision made?

 

did your partner appeal? what was the outcome?

 

did the council prosecute?

 

She hasn't had time to appeal as she only just got the AOE today,

and no doubt mine will follow by the end of the week

 

Also excuse my ignorance, but prosecute? As in take us to court?

 

There was a court hearing, but not (after reading other people's posts) an official one,

just a council letter saying there would be one, nothing from court themselves.

But was too short notice to do anything nor be able to attend

 

I also forgot to mention, every time we pay our rent, council or hmrc are going to our housing association and taking money back from our rent, which the association failed to mention for a while until we fell further behind in rent, yet we are still being billed for 19k

Edited April 17, 2015 by suprashep

[estellyn]

Kirsty needs to appeal any overpayments she has received - for any council related overpayments , write a letter to the department requesting an appeal. for any dwp overpayments write and request a 'mandatory reconsideration' of the overpayment first before a appeal can be made.

 

Appeals and reconsiderations normally have to be made within one month of the date on the letter, but can be made late (with reasons) up to 13 moths after date on letter.

 

Only the person on benefits receives the overpayments and is at risk of criminal prosecution. The appeal process is the only way to try to get the overpayments overturned, and therefore to help prevent any criminal prosecution.

 

If you were on benefits too, then you will have a separate interview under caution for your benefits.

 

I take it you're currently living together? When did that start?

[suprashep]

Hi thank you for that. No I was in a job where I worked away considerably. We moved in together around August last year, they are wanting all this money (council tax, housing benefit and any other monies) from the day we met or there abouts. Plus council tax of over 5k from myself

[id6052]

at some time after the interview under caution. the council should have notified your partner of how much housing benefit and council tax benefit/reduction they believed had been overpaid

 

the letter should also have explained that your partner had one month to appeal the HB & CTB from the date of that letter - (it sounds like this happened several months ago if it is at AOE stage)

 

as it is outside the month, your partner will need to make a late application for an appeal - this should be in writing to the Council and needs to be done as soon as possible

[suprashep]

Yes this interview happened several months ago. Myself and my witnesses are still waiting, but as it's now at this stage, I presume we will not get our interviews.

It took quite a while for them to decide to send bills of monies owed to them.

 

I myself have just received a copy of an AOE for over 5k today for council tax of which I wanted to post a picture of it but am unable

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, the amount of money they said is owed, and the stating about appeals was never mentioned to my partner as I just asked her

[suprashep]

my problem now is, these AOE are going to absolutely cripple us, we find it virtually impossible to reach the 4th week of the month as it is. We receive no other tax benefits or anything just both our (in my opinion) low wages.

 

As far as I am concerned, I made myself homeless due to money problems in the first place, and as I've never been interviewed regarding this nor any of my witnesses, they are illegally taking money from me.

 

I've heard mixed responses regarding official AOE or court specific letters, many saying these need to be wet signed and have the court seal embossed on these (that's if an AOE is actually a court thing), this may not be the case, but mine certainly has none of the above.

 

My problem is, I'm useless at wording letters/emails and have no idea what myself and my partner need to write to these robbing scumbags.

[Mr.P]

There are gaps in your tail of woe and so many unanswered questions. Before an AOE is made, there has to be an investigation, letters sent out, and notification of an appeals process. With a supposed "fraud" of £41K, there would almost certainly be a criminal prosecution in the pipeline. Even for $19K, I would have expected the L.A. to be referring the case to the CPS.

 

I would strongly advise you to collect together all the paperwork that has been sent to you and your partner. Then telephone the local Citizens Advice Bureau and make an appointment as soon as possible. They can then scrutinize the paperwork to see if correct procedure has been followed and what your prospects are.

 

Unfortunately, we can only offer limited advice based on what little you have told us.

 

One last thing: Forget the twaddle about a "wet signature". If proper process has been followed, a digital signature is good enough.

[suprashep]

Thanks for the reply, I have asked my employer

to send me the copy of the AOE, which, is exactly the same as mine, letter headed with the councils name not the court, yet the letter states a liability order was made against me. But I presume also signed by a member of council, not one thing from the court itself, does this make any ddifference?

Just looked, John kirkman is a council officer, nothing to do with courts

[id6052]

the government changed the law, councils now have the power to make AOEs, without going to court

[suprashep]

the government changed the law, councils now have the power to make AOEs, without going to court

 

Ah ok first time I've heard this

[suprashep]

surely as myself or anyone else has never been interviewed interviewed, that's a massive boo boo they've made in following protocol?

[mikeymack2002]

Have a read of the attachment and let us know what may apply to you even though it is for a different benefit most rules apply to all of them

[mikeymack2002]

You may also want to read my thread here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?442331-A-new-guide-for-staff-housing-benefit-overpayment

[suprashep]

You may also want to read my thread here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?442331-A-new-guide-for-staff-housing-benefit-overpayment

 

I will get on with this tonight, sorry for late reply, been of and in hospital from work with a burst ulcer, but can't afford to be off so had to go back to work today,

Many thanks mikeymack

I will reply tonight

[suprashep]

in regards to parts of your first attachment

 

Two people living in one dwelling

E4033 To be members of the same household means that

1.

two people live in the same house, flat, apartment, caravan or other dwelling place and neither normally lives in another household and

2.

they both live there regularly, apart from absences necessary for employment, to visit relatives, etc.

Here would say No. 2 may apply if i am understanding correctly, OR:-

E4034 However, examples of two people living in one dwelling but not necessarily living together in the same household include

1.

lodgers or students who necessarily share a single gas/electricity supply etc and who may have an arrangement to share costs for items such as food and cleaning materials. in which case-

 

Common factors associated with the existence of a household

 

E4035 The DM must consider all the circumstances of a case in deciding whether two people are members of the same household. In addition to E4033, there are other factors commonly associated with a household which should be explored. These factors have been identified in cases dealing with whether married couples, who claim to be estranged, are still living in the same household, but they may also indicate the existence of a shared household occupied by an unmarried couple. The DM should consider evidence relating to the following when making a finding as to whether a household exists

1.the circumstances in which the two people came to be living in the same house; in my case, after finding i was unable to afford the upkeep of my own residence due to ongoing financial difficulties, i made myself homeless. I was offered a safe address for postal correspondence and a couch to sleep on in times needed between looking after my parents, staying on other friends couches, but LARGELY my residence was a lorry due to my employment status.

 

2. the arrangements for paying for the accommodation; I was never asked to pay towards rent or such like as my now partner was afraid it would cause her and her young daughter a lot of problems (she also paid the bedroom tax from her own money/benefit)

 

3. the arrangements for the storage and cooking of food; Majority of MY food i took to work to cook in my lorry

 

4. the eating arrangements (whether separate or not); As above really, otherwise wherever i might be when not away

 

5. the domestic arrangements such as cleaning, gardening and minor household maintenance; Obviously not around enough to contribute, plus her father was a landscaper, so did her gardening

 

6. the financial arrangements (who pays which bills? is there a joint bank account? whose name is shown on utility bills?); only joint account i had in a joint name was with my mother to help try sort my debts while i was away. only bill i paid was for a landline so i had the use of internet for job searches etc, all others where DD in her name from her account which she paid

 

7. evidence of family life. still waiting to see this for myself

 

Not sure if i may be misunderstanding:-

E4037 Such a relationship may not be classed as LTAMC1 where, for example, the need for care or support is the main reason. It is not only the reason that caused the parties to live together which is important, but the facts and circumstances that apply after they have done so: only caring involved was if i where free and not away or elsewhere, if she needed a babysitter, i would go to her place of work, collect her daughter and a set of keys and babysit her daughter for her on an evening.

 

As i mentioned quite a few posts ago, the only evidence that came to light, where my bank statements they took from the bank, a statement from her old boss of 6 months (previously sentenced to prison twice for fraud) which actually coincided with myself and the babysitting arrangement?!? and that i used the address to insure my car, which, i need an address to insure a car, which is none related to any of this but apparently is to them.

[mikeymack2002]

The attachment is designed to be complicated and force claimants to ask questions, this is why I posted it up for you to do dthe same. You will also need to be aware of agency cross referencing including your credit file, most people forget this and the DWP use it a lot to find "couples" living together so they can check to see if they are in a relationship, due to shared bills credit banks and much more, do you share anything else like this?

[suprashep]

The attachment is designed to be complicated and force claimants to ask questions, this is why I posted it up for you to do dthe same. You will also need to be aware of agency cross referencing including your credit file, most people forget this and the DWP use it a lot to find "couples" living together so they can check to see if they are in a relationship, due to shared bills credit banks and much more, do you share anything else like this?

 

See, not a clue what I'm doing. But never before nor now do we share anything. Not on paper, not on credit file as I also know my credit file was checked

[id6052]

has kirsty appealed yet?

[suprashep]

has kirsty appealed yet?

 

No not yet, I think, as like me, didn't know where to turn, what to do or anything and is hoping I might find an answer

[whatthehelltodo]

Hi i can only advise you from personal experience, I am a bit confused by some of your post, people will possibly disagree with some of what i say but i was in a very similar situation. First and foremost get all your evidence/paperwork together and see a solicitor NOW.

 

My partner at the time also sofa surfed and spent time in his brothers caravan and worked away for periods of time, he was on my car insurance so any paperwork for the car came to mine as did his driving licence details as he got points and didnt want his mum seing!, i was also in massive debt and not coping ( buried my head in the sand!) so he rang the water rates people and the phone line company and took over the debt in his name in an attempt to sort out an agreement before they took me to court...

 

So fast forwards a few years and i get an interview under caution where the fact i spent £145 per week in asda was provided as proof he lived with me .. ( too much for 1 woman with 2 small children apparently!) any official documents in his name or bills are proof he lives with me .... the fact he transferred £300 into my bank to pay me back some money he owed me was proof he lived with me ... the fact he worked away went massively against me too as in the eyes of the DWP thats proof he was living with me and we were committing benefit fraud

 

If you add up what they are saying your partner has been overpaid in housing benefit, council tax benefit, income support/tax credits if the total is over £21,000 it is likely they will infact prosecute.

 

We went to see a solicitor and whether people feel i was misinformed or not is a matter of personal opinion but i was told when pleading not guilty in a court the judge & Jury decide based on reasonable evidence what is classed as you contributing to the household ( not definite proof of you LIVING at the address) this was news to me .. so the fact some money went into my account, car insurance and driving licences were at my address, EVEN the fact he was on the emergency contact list at my childs school was brought up and used.. they had spoken to my doctors, dentist, banks, utility companies n my usage of electric and gas and water ...... all this would count against me in a court and anything i said would be seen as an excuse.

 

After summing all this up i made the painful decision to plead guilty I couldn't face ( was suffering severe depression at the time and we had by this point moved in together and i was now pregnant!) 10 days of trial with friends called to the witness box, massive press coverage and the possibility of been then sent to prison if found guilty and leaving my babies

 

My solicitor was great but honest and told me the evidence although circumstantial was stackd against me. The only concrete was of being found not guilty of benefit fraud is to have NO correspondence at your partners address, no money go into her account and a permanent fixed abode where you pay rent and council tax & proof of this.

 

If i can help anymore then feel free to contact me but ultimately for all your sakes get a solicitor immediately, you possibly will get help with legal aid - we did x