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    • Hello CAG, Bit of a long post, may want to get a cuppa before starting reading... 😁   So, after being a lurker for many years and trying never to get into a mess with credit cards like i did 20 years ago, i've got myself into a mess with Amex... I've tried being open and honest with them, but now getting the feeling they are messing me around.  Its not a chargecard, but a Nectar Credit Card with them. Took out 2016. Balance is just under £15k as of today, was almost at £17k. Debt still owed by Amex, not been sent to NCO/Arrow etc - YET...    Background (short version): Was all fine with more than min. payment (£500 or so), being made until April 2020 when a number of things reduced my monthly salary from work (mainly, take a pay cut or be made redundant), so I soon quickly realised i needed to tighten my belt quickly.  Phoned Amex, advisor said nothing they could do except Payment Holiday. Was put onto that for 3 months, told that Amex will be in touch at the end to restart payments. I asked about interest being stopped/frozen/reduced - not possible. So agreed to payment holiday to give me breathing space.  3 months came and went, no contact from Amex... No payments made, interest still racking up at around £300 a month...  Rang Amex back (July 2020), we cant do anything today because your in the middle of the statement cycle call back next week. Called back week after, no solution yet (i asked about things i seen on Amex US website = Regain program - basically freeze card, lower interest rate and pay a set amount for 12 months - more about this later) > Not available in UK yet. Want to stay on payment holiday Mister B? I asked if there was any way interest could be stopped as this is making the balance increase and increase. No. Do you want to stay on Payment Holiday? Ok. (Bear in mind, if i came off Payment holiday. Minimum Payment was around £570 per month.  So, stayed on payment holiday... Didnt hear anything from Amex again. Called back up in September 2020. Please call back in October after 10th and we can assit. Called back after October 10, went through loads of stuff, different options etc, was warned that Payment Holiday might not be extended much longer, but now have a program. Worked out with Amex woman that i could pay around £200 per month. But please stop interest - no we cant but we can reduce this down to 9.9APR instead of 23%... . Amex woman said she needed to submit details to 'Seniors' at Amex, please call back next week for update. Called back week after, advised that first Amex woman was wrong and had made mistakes, shouldnt have told me what she had told me, £200 is too low, minimum would be £389 per month for 12 months or account will default. Told Amex woman 2 that couldnt afford it, went through this last time, etc etc. Amex woman 2 went off, came back, £329.74 is mininum they can possbily accept, 12 months at that amount per month and interest would be lowered, but not stopped. If you dont take out this 'Program' then account will default and will be passed to NCO or Arrow (I hate them both).  Went off, tried to get loans etc, all refused. Rang Amex back, reluctantly agreed so i can basically keep credit rating at 'good'.  So, been paying since Nov 2021 @ £329.74.    Letter arrived in December - due to out mess up with moving accounts around whilst on payment holiday, we are going to give you £3074 back. Logged into account, only £30.74 refunded, not £3074. Phoned Amex cos thought it was a joke/mistake - Spoke to some bloke - Oh dont worry, the rest will be applied to account automatically in 7 days. he advised was genuine but then got cut off during call. Called back, spoke to some other bloke, yes, looks genuine but please hold... Came back 10 minutes later. Oh, its a mis-print, your not the only customer to receive one of these. Each should have been £30.74 not £3074. Me = Gutted.    Wrote a letter to Amex saying how dissatisifed i was with general customer service and felt they were incompentant, blah blah etc. Final response received, Complaint partially upheld, heres £150 credit because we were a bit silly, but thats it. IF your still not happy, go to FOS.  Opened a case with FOS... Have basically sent them the complaint letter to them and have had a call from them about this... FOS are backlogged though and will take another 3 months for complaint to be looked at by them.   Let me make this 100% clear, fully admit to owning the debt, yep, ive spent this money (wish I knew what on, cos having got much to show from it - just general stuff and holidays)... Not trying to shirk out of it, trying my best to keep up with re-payments but im really strugglling. After I got paid on 1st APril, after paying all outgoings i had £9.83 left in current account so am having to go into overdraft each month which is just a viscious circle.  I would really like to NOT have to down the default route and trash my credit rating and then have to deal with the morons at NCO / Arrow etc.    Meanwhile, this is where I need the advice of the CAG experts... - Credit Limit increases... These were coming every few months and it was just being upped and upped and upped. Credit limit eventually was stopped at £15,400. Some of the increases I never even received letter for, just noticed when I logged into account. >>>> Would this be a case for irresponsible lending? - Stopping interest - I've read something on FCA site that they reccomend (not policy) that if a customer is put onto a payment holiday then they reccomend freezing interest for customer so the debt doesnt continue to build. I've asked time and time again, Amex just refuse.  >>>> Any tips on how to get Amex to play ball?  - Full & Final/Short settlement I've rung Amex today, told them I might be able to pay it off. Initially they said full balance, i then pushed, they then said they would accept 80% of balance, pushed them a bit more, got it down to 70%. >>> Surprised, and then very surprised they would accept 70%, anyone else think this is a bit odd? Normally they wont budge, or they wont budge from their first offer... Could their be something wrong on account (missing CCA etc?), or do they want rid of me and account as much as I do with them? - Cant really keep going at these £329.74 repayments. Something is going to have to give somewhere. I believe they wont go any lower and they will just default it i send £100 instead of £329 and send it out to NCO/Arrow. This might not be a too bad thing though because this would stop the interest right? Anyone thoughts on this?    Anyone think of anything else I could try with them? Again, its still with Amex, not defaulted or anything yet, yep, its all my own fault, i've spent the money, dont deny that, just feel Amex have took advantage etc.   Many thanks for reading. Any advice is greatly appreicated.   Kr, Mista B.     
    • Ok so we have complained to HMRC but were still no further forward with getting the P45/P60. We need this as DVLA has said they need more proof of who he is before giving him a provisional license.  What more can l do. 
    • Hi All   just looking for some advice. I bought a used Porsche Boxster from one of Marshall motor group’s Audi dealers (can I name them?) recently and was assured that it received a major service in October 2020 in line with the manufacturers requirements. The service book confirms this. The dealer also told me on the phone that they have a 6 month rule with any mot or service being done if due within this period which assured me when making an offer over the phone on the car that it wouldn’t need anything doing for a while as I recall saying that.   However, digging through the receipts post delivery I saw that the service was in fact minor and after calling the specialist who serviced it in Oct both they (Sheepishly) and the invoice confirmed that the car did not receive new spark plugs, an air filter, brake fluid replacement or a new fan belt which have now all fallen due and hence the major service due warning light. Had I not investigated this then the car would have potentially gone another 4 years, so 8 in total without some of these items being done.   i emailed the salesman to ask what they would propose to do. The matter is complicated by my living 450 miles away in Scotland, and 200 from their nearest branch, a Mercedes dealer in the Lake District, so I suggested getting my cheapest local specialist to do the works that have fallen due, however I have received no response.   Whilst I am still within my 30 days i don’t want to reject the car, which is otherwise perfect, but the fact remains that the Audi 150 point check only asks for upcoming mot’s to be checked and not services and surely you wouldn’t buy an approved used car and expect to have the service light come on 2 weeks later and have to spend almost £500 putting it right.   i would really appreciate some advice on next steps and perhaps who to escalate this to. Meantime the car is booked in for 2 weeks time to get the work done at the cheapest reputable place I could find.   Many, many thanks in advance
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Schnide vs Egg


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I'll start my own thread rather than hijacking someone elses. After sending the following letter to the OFT:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/egg/39955-egg-its-wild-claims.html

 

..this is the reply I received:

 

"Dear Mr [schnide]

 

Thank you for your e-mail regarding the charges imposed on you by Egg. You state that Egg are misinterpreting the statement made by this Office about the level of charges which we would consider acceptable.

 

I should explain that the £12 threshold for intervention is not a price cap. We are not saying that default fees should be set at £12 or that a court will consider a default fee to be fair just because it is at or below £12. We expect and are calling on the market to apply the principles of fairness set out in our statement, which leave room for different levels and models of charging provided they are based on limited administrative costs, and to recalculate their own fees.

 

In line with its current enforcement policy, the OFT will investigate the fairness of any fee set above the threshold. In limited exceptional cases, a card issuer may be able to show that it is fair and consistent with the principles set out in our statement to charge higher default fees.

 

In relation to Egg's claim that we have approved a charge of £16, that is not exactly the case. What we have said in our statement of principles at para 1.6 is:

 

On the analysis we have undertaken we have concluded that generally credit card default fees have been set at a significantly higher level than is fair for the purposes of the UTCCRs. The level of a fair fee will, however, be dependant on the precise business circumstances. Some exceptional factors, for example whether a card issuer requires (not merely allows) customers to give it direct debit authority to ensure a minimum payment is made, may lead to a lower level of instances of default.

 

A card issuer operating a policy of this kind may be able to justify a higher level of default fee than one that does not because its relevant business costs are being recovered from a proportionately smaller number of defaults. However, even in the circumstances of this kind the card issuer may only recover the relevant limited administrative costs arising out of those defaults.

 

In other words there may be circumstances in which a charge in excess of £12 will be considered fair by a court if it can be shown to have been calculated in line with our principles and a true pre-estimate of the costs they have entailed in recovering losses.

 

In this context, we are grateful for the information that you have provided and we have logged it on our records in order to further our understanding of this market.

 

Yours sincerely.."

 

So how useful is this? I received my allocation questionnaire in the last few days as well, will I be able to use any of the above? I also have a few other questions about the questionnaire, which I'm hoping someone can help with.

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No replies to the above yet.. But okay, this is the defence that Egg have entered:

 

"1. [Claimant entered into agreement with Egg on..]

 

2. It is admitted that a charge was added to the Claimant's Egg account during the course of the Agreement. The charge was made pursuant to clause 7.1 of the Defendant's standard terms and conditions as a result of insufficient funds being available from the Claimant's designated current account to cover the amount of the direct debit payment due on the Egg Card in breach of the Terms and Conditions. Clause 7.1 clearly states "If you break the terms of this Agreement we may charge you the following, where relevant, to cover the additional cost to us: ..£20 if you do not keep up the payments of the Account.."

 

3. It is denied that the charges represent a "penalty" as alleged. The Defendant recognises that customers, such as the Claimant, exceed their Credit Limit or fail to make or are late in paying the required repayments and the Defendant therefore puts in place systems and processes to deal with the same. Such systems and processes include the use of computers, staff and other necessary overheads. The charges set out in clause 7 of the Terms and Conditions are calculated by taking into account the total costs incurred by the Defendant in maintaining those systems and processes and the estimated number of customers (such as the Claimant) who will fail to make or are late in paying the required repayments. The Defendant avers therefore that the amount of the charges applied under clause 7 represents a genuine pre-estimate of the loss and expense caused to the Defendant in respect of such customers exceeding their Credit Limit or failing to make or being late in paying the required repayments.

 

4. [section about putting a direct debit in place to make sure repayments are made]

 

5. Accordingly, it is denied that the charges are unenforcable at common law.

 

6. The Claimant is put to proof that his loss as a result of the charges is £21.60 as alleged.

 

7. In the event that the Court finds the default charges levied on the Claimant do constitute an penalty and are thus unenforcable, the Defendant asks the Court to assess the actual cost to the Defendant of dealing with the Claimant's breach of contract in failing to make his repayments."

 

Do they have a leg to stand on here? My case seems pretty straightforward, and I'd really appreciate some advice on how to fill out the Allocation Questionnaire in light of the above two posts.

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I'm aware of the general help offered to fill in allocation questionnaire's, but I was particularly hoping that the information in the first post from the OFT could be of use. Anyone?

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Schnide,

 

I had a similar challenge from Egg, all fairly standard defence.

 

They are, in essence, doing a lot of the work for you - para 3 is almost offering standard disclosure, this is the route which I have taken. Request, on the AQ that the judge orders Egg to divulge a thorough breakdown of costs. I went a stage further and requested that the judge order Egg to divulge the profit from overlimit charges over the last 6 years (if it is a genuine pre-estimate then the profit should be negligible).

 

Section 4 will be an important part of the defence and an attempt to justify the disproportionate charges by weasling around the OFT comments of issuers with direct debits may be able to charge slightly higher - countered with the comments from the OFT in response to Ema Clayton's threats in the offer letter.

 

Section 5 - well thats clearly not true. You also need to point out that this penalty charge area is also well covered by the UTTCR in respect to dispropotionate charges as Egg will claim that this extortion is offered as a service (for which you pay exorbitant fees) rather than a genuine penalty charge clause.

 

Section 7 sets out fall back positions if they get trounced - and is countered by a request for standard disclosure.

 

I was recently chatting to a friend of the family who is also a prominent barrister. In the conversation, I mentioned my fears of being out gunned and out manoeuvered by the legal big wigs, and she said that the judge will make sure that the lay individual will not be disadvantaged during the trial. Whilst it is unusual ground for you, I'm sure you'll be fine. You have the law on your side.

 

Let ma know if I can help further.

 

Regards,

Chris.

  • Confused 1
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  • 1 month later...

Let's say that, as I predicted, a close friend has recently been offered full payment in return for dropping the case.. and a confidentiality clause.

 

My friend is very happy with all of the above except the confidentiality clause - I feel that my friend should be able to acknowledge his/her case on this forum to encourage others against this particular organisation.

 

How within their rights are Egg to request this clause - would it be worth my friend pushing harder, in whatever capacity?

 

I of course expect a similar letter to arrive to my home in the coming days, if of course it hasn't done so already.

 

Victory against the Egg!

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hi schnide i am also excpecting this and a confy clause too here is what i would do i will not except it but if they want to pay say £500 for me to accept it then i will of course do that i am easily pleased but it is entirely up to you.

if the founders of this bank charges thing all accepted the confidentiality clauses set out by the banks we all would not be claiming our money back now.

SETTLED CASES

LTSB (CC) £20 21-8-06

HSBC (CC) £600 19-10-06

HSBC (Ac) No.1 £1900 25-10-06

RBS (CC) £900 25-10-06

Smile (Ac) £1300 17-11-06

A&L (Ac) No.1 £400 23-11-06

A&L (Mortgage ERC) £3900 4-12-06

LTSB (Ac) £200 13-12-06

A&L (Ac) No.2 £120 19-12-06

HSBC (Ac) No.2 £650 29-12-06

LTSB (Business) £1700 13-2-07

RBS (Ac) £4500 + Default Removal 17-3-07

Barclays (Bus) Warrant of Execution 10-3-07 not used yet

ONGOING CASES

Egg (CC) N1 Filed £1300 + Default Removal Judgment Order 9/1/07 In my Favour

Barclays Business loan & 2 accs. S.A.R N1 filed Judgment in Default isued 15/2/07

HSBC (CC) have failed to produce Credit Agreement

TO DO CASES

Egg (Loan)

LTSB (Ac Ltd Company)

LTSB (Loan)

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schnide-

 

Do NOT accept the Confidentiality Clause!

 

Any District Judge would take an extremely 'dim view' of the Defendants attempt of imposing Unfair Terms upon the Claimant, in what is a simple monetary Claim.

 

Love AC

 

Thanks for the advice - so what would my friend do, reject the offer? Is it likely they'll offer the amount again without the clause?

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yes i have done this on a couple of times with differant banks writing back and saying you will accept the offer but without the conditions, remember you are in controll here not them, i know it seems strange but that is the case.

best of luck CB

  • Confused 1

SETTLED CASES

LTSB (CC) £20 21-8-06

HSBC (CC) £600 19-10-06

HSBC (Ac) No.1 £1900 25-10-06

RBS (CC) £900 25-10-06

Smile (Ac) £1300 17-11-06

A&L (Ac) No.1 £400 23-11-06

A&L (Mortgage ERC) £3900 4-12-06

LTSB (Ac) £200 13-12-06

A&L (Ac) No.2 £120 19-12-06

HSBC (Ac) No.2 £650 29-12-06

LTSB (Business) £1700 13-2-07

RBS (Ac) £4500 + Default Removal 17-3-07

Barclays (Bus) Warrant of Execution 10-3-07 not used yet

ONGOING CASES

Egg (CC) N1 Filed £1300 + Default Removal Judgment Order 9/1/07 In my Favour

Barclays Business loan & 2 accs. S.A.R N1 filed Judgment in Default isued 15/2/07

HSBC (CC) have failed to produce Credit Agreement

TO DO CASES

Egg (Loan)

LTSB (Ac Ltd Company)

LTSB (Loan)

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My friend's case is almost at a close - I suggested to them that they allow the 14 day deadline of the payment and confidentiality clause expire, and then write to Egg after this date to say they are willing to accept payment without the clause.

 

I assume it was safe for them to do this, rather than reject the offer within the 14 day period?

 

Regardless of the outcome, I have already made a donation to this site, and long may it continue.

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I suggest such passive silence for 14 days would put your friend at a psychological disadvantage. Egg could come back and paint a picture suggesting insouciance, stalling tactics and unhelpfulness on the part of the cardholder.

 

I would write a polite and most correct letter to Egg, saying that whereas you have heard that the district judge would be furious about the confidentiality clause, you are not well versed on the law. Would Egg have any objections if before signing or not signing this agreement, that you take it to a national newspaper financial journalist for consultation and advice. Whether he has heard Egg as a matter of policy conducts cover-ups. If Egg were now to repudiate and withdraw aforesaid offer, does Egg wish to show contempt for public opinion, as well as for the law of England?

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well needless to say, my friend referred to earlier was me. The reason I let the 14 day period expire wasn't because on purpose but because I forgot about it over Christmas :)

 

Nevertheless, I wrote to Egg shortly after saying that I could not accept their unfair terms of confidentiality, but that I would be happy to accept the full amount by itself for £52.02 to settle the case.

 

Last week, I received the separate cheque and letter and the case has been filed for dismissal.

 

So..

 

It could have cost you £20 Egg but you had to fight it didn't you? Then I took you to court and your threats didn't frighten me off. A sincere thank you to everyone on this forum, donation already made.

 

I have WON! I have BEATEN you Egg, just like I said I would!

 

*** VICTORY FOR SCHNIDE! ***

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Cheers for Schnide at the end of a long and winding road. Schnide joins the roll of honour in VE Day thread.

 

It lifts the spirit to witness a principle vindicated,

and justice restored in this green and pleasant land.

 

 

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well done fantastic news schnide,

all the best CB.

SETTLED CASES

LTSB (CC) £20 21-8-06

HSBC (CC) £600 19-10-06

HSBC (Ac) No.1 £1900 25-10-06

RBS (CC) £900 25-10-06

Smile (Ac) £1300 17-11-06

A&L (Ac) No.1 £400 23-11-06

A&L (Mortgage ERC) £3900 4-12-06

LTSB (Ac) £200 13-12-06

A&L (Ac) No.2 £120 19-12-06

HSBC (Ac) No.2 £650 29-12-06

LTSB (Business) £1700 13-2-07

RBS (Ac) £4500 + Default Removal 17-3-07

Barclays (Bus) Warrant of Execution 10-3-07 not used yet

ONGOING CASES

Egg (CC) N1 Filed £1300 + Default Removal Judgment Order 9/1/07 In my Favour

Barclays Business loan & 2 accs. S.A.R N1 filed Judgment in Default isued 15/2/07

HSBC (CC) have failed to produce Credit Agreement

TO DO CASES

Egg (Loan)

LTSB (Ac Ltd Company)

LTSB (Loan)

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I can honestly say I couldn't have done it without this forum, so thank you again to all those who offered very useful advice and also to those such as yourself Yasmin who opened the floodgates and inspired others.

 

This is exactly the kind of grass roots action that I very much hope will only become more common. If consumers realised that the power lies with themselves in where they take their money, this country could change over night.

 

Tell your friends to close their bank accounts and move to an ethical provider (I recommend the Co-Operative, who refunded my charges instantly).

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Well said and WELL DONE!!!

FIRST DIRECT: £4751.86 SETTLED IN FULL 5/07/06 :-)

 

TESCO VISA CARD: £90 SETTLED IN FULL 12/08/06 :)

 

LLOYDS TSB: £4403.59 SETTLED IN FULL 17/08/06 :)

EGG: £451.52 SETTLED IN FULL 18/01/07 :)

 

 

Opinions and advice of kazzaw are independent, offered informally, without prejudice, without liability, and not endorsed by the Bank Action Group. If in any doubt, seek the advice of a qualified, insured professional.

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