UKPC ticketing at West Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust A&E department **Cancelled**

[aeverard]

Had to take my 86-y-o father to local hospital A&E today after home visit from doctor.

 

Parked in a marked bay near to A&E and displayed father's disabled badge on dashboard

while i went to find wheelchair and take father (who has both breathing and walking difficulties) in to 'book in'.

 

5 mins max later I came out to move the car and it had one one of UKPC's 'penalty notice' invoices in disguise on the windscreen.

 

Tried to call the number on the back of the piece of paper, but just got rerouted and then cut off five times

until I got someone to answer – a robot I think, as she just said

'I can't do anything you'll have to appeal online no the appeals department don't answer the phone

because they're too busy with documentation' in response to every point I attempted to make.

 

 

Apparently I was parked on private land – at an NHS hospital, which according to the paper attached to my windscreen is apparently private property.

 

I didn't get any sensible response to my enquiry as to who she actually thought owns the NHS,

and my suggestion that I would charge them for the time I had to spend going through the appeals procedure

was answered with 'If you do that we will have to refer you to our legal team'.

 

Ho hum - will start the appeals procedure tomorrow, plus a stiff letter to the hospital in question, which presumably employs this company.

[armadillo71]

Are you asking for advice? Or just posting what you intend to do?

[aeverard]

Asking for advice, and venting some anger

[dx100uk]

hope it didn't have the word penalty on it...

 

 

dx

[armadillo71]

Asking for advice, and venting some anger

 

Ok.

 

Never phone a ppc.

 

Do not respond to the NTD and identity the driver. Wait for the NTK in the post which must be received between 29-56 days from the parking event to follow the POFA 2012.

 

Which NHS trust was this please?

[aeverard]

Which NHS trust was this please?

West Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust

[aeverard]

hope it didn't have the word penalty on it..

No, it didn't: it says 'Parking Charge Notice', but of course is made to look like a 'parking ticket'

[armadillo71]

Very interesting parking policy the trust has...

 

 

 

West Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust

 

15.*Penalty Charge Notice & Appeals

 

Car parks are managed and policed through the PFI service provider [ETDE] for both public and staff parking. **Penalty Charge Notices (PCN) are used as a deterrent and final control measure. *Details of situations that will incur an immediate Penalty Charge Notice are shown at Appendix 1.

 

 

 

http://www.west-middlesex-hospital.nhs.uk/about-us/freedom-of-information/publication-scheme/our-policies-and-procedures/?assetdet47345=716

[dx100uk]

opps surely they should not be using that penalty word....

 

 

oh dear they use it 18 times in that document

 

 

 

dx

[aeverard]

Very interesting parking policy the trust has...

 

 

 

West Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust

 

15.*Penalty Charge Notice & Appeals

 

Car parks are managed and policed through the PFI service provider [ETDE] for both public and staff parking. **Penalty Charge Notices (PCN) are used as a deterrent and final control measure. *Details of situations that will incur an immediate Penalty Charge Notice are shown at Appendix 1.

 

Yes, I just noticed that myself while researching some more. And the document linked to by their 'travelling by car' webpage refers to the 'tickets' issued by UKPC as both 'Penalty Charge Notice' and 'fines', as below (my italics):

The Penalty Charge Notice will be levied at £80. Staff and members of the public will be required to contact the operator UK Parking Control (UKPC) on their Customer Services number: 0870 174 0074 to pay the fee. Fines which are paid within 14 days receive a 50% discount i.e. a fee of £40.

 

Fines which are not paid nor communication received within 56 days will be referred to an independent debt recovery agency where legal action may result; additional charges will be incurred if this action becomes necessary.

[armadillo71]

Could you post up a redacted copy of the NTD please?

 

Does it mention the POFA 2012 or POPLA?

[aeverard]

Yes, on the back of the notice under the section on 'Contesting the Parking Charge' it says:

 

'If UK Parking Control decline your appeal you may then have the option to have your appeal heard by the Parking on Private Land Appeals Scheme (POPLA), an Independent Adjudicator. This is subject to the private land in question being deemed "relevant land" as defined in Section 3 in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012'

 

EDIT: I also notice on the hospital's site, in the document linked to above, that there's a further route of appeal should UKPC refuse the appeal via its procedures, in which the hospital trust can review the 'Penalty Charge Notice' and rule that it should be cancelled.

Edited April 14, 2015 by aeverard

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

Had to take my 86-y-o father to local hospital A&E today after home visit from doctor.

 

Parked in a marked bay near to A&E and displayed father's disabled badge on dashboard

while i went to find wheelchair and take father (who has both breathing and walking difficulties) in to 'book in'.

 

5 mins max later I came out to move the car and it had one one of UKPC's 'penalty notice' invoices in disguise on the windscreen.

 

Tried to call the number on the back of the piece of paper, but just got rerouted and then cut off five times

until I got someone to answer – a robot I think, as she just said

'I can't do anything you'll have to appeal online no the appeals department don't answer the phone

because they're too busy with documentation' in response to every point I attempted to make.

 

 

Apparently I was parked on private land – at an NHS hospital, which according to the paper attached to my windscreen is apparently private property.

 

I didn't get any sensible response to my enquiry as to who she actually thought owns the NHS,

and my suggestion that I would charge them for the time I had to spend going through the appeals procedure

was answered with 'If you do that we will have to refer you to our legal team'.

 

Ho hum - will start the appeals procedure tomorrow, plus a stiff letter to the hospital in question, which presumably employs this company.

 

You say marked bay, but marked with what? Disabled bay? Pay and display? Emergency vehicles only?

[aeverard]

You say marked bay, but marked with what? Disabled bay? Pay and display? Emergency vehicles only?

No, neither disabled or emergency only, just a white marked-out plain bay, at the edge of which the double yellow lines stopped; was in a hurry due to the circumstances, and had other things on my mind as you can imagine, and only on returning to the car did I see there was a pay machine a little down the road, and the UKPC signage.

[DragonFly1967]

Take a screen shot, or download that document where it refers to the parking charge as a penalty. Just in case someone realises and changes it. Keep that in a safe place.

 

This win is going to be so simple it's almost unreal.

[fkofilee]

Id agree with Dragonfly. This is going to be stupidly easy to prove a point. lol

[aeverard]

Take a screen shot, or download that document where it refers to the parking charge as a penalty. Just in case someone realises and changes it. Keep that in a safe place.

OK, have done.

Thank you all for all your help so far: could someone direct me to exactly where in law it says Penalties are not allowed, only the recovery of parking charges?

By the way, I've checked and the hospital charges £1.40 for an hour's parking where my car was given the notice, so that's all the revenue it's lost, and I subsequently moved the car in one of its official disabled bays in the main car-park, for which I paid £5.20 for a period of 4 to 5 hours' parking. So it's hardly out of pocket...

Edited April 14, 2015 by aeverard

[DragonFly1967]

The unenforceable penalty clause stems from Dunlop Vs New Garage.

 

Here's a Wikipedia write up regarding it which includes the relevant case law.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunlop_Pneumatic_Tyre_Co_Ltd_v_New_Garage_%26_Motor_Co_Ltd

 

 

To sum up, what it basically means, in the case of PPC's, is that an Appellant (which MUST be the landowner, or an agent that has provable assignment of the landowners rights in respect of bringing a claim in its own name (hence the need of sight of contract (if it gets that far))) can claim for liquidated damages only. In other words, they can claim an amount equal to their actual loss. Not some fabricated amount that they've pulled from a hat.

 

Anything more than liquidated damages, must in law, be a penalty and is therefore unenforceable.

 

 

And to actually refer to it as a penalty, which they've done (hence the need to screenshot or download that document mentioned earlier) just blows any case they might think of bringing, completely out of the water. If it ever went anywhere near a county court (doubtful), the judge will take one look at that and find in your favour, and probably award your costs as well, just to rub salt into the wounds of the PPC.

 

If you've got any proof at all that you also paid £5.20 to park, keep that too.

 

 

You're going to have so much fun with this, I'm almost jealous! I've tried to get my pet parking company (Highview) to take me on on a number of occaisions, but they refuse to play

[aeverard]

You're going to have so much fun with this, I'm almost jealous!

 

Sorry to say all good fun must come to an end, but having ranted at WMHUT about the way UKPC is targeting its patients in times of stress, have just received a very apologetic email saying their facilities department is having the 'Penalty Charge Notice' – yes it still says that! – cancelled, and gently reminding me that in future even if I have the Blue Badge on display I have to pay for a space.

 

Which is all the result I really wanted, but I am really grateful to everyone here who offered me advice and opinions, and I'm really sorry to have deprived you of some sport and a bit of a saga. ;-)

[DragonFly1967]

Oh never mind us, people like yourself are like busses (no offence), there'll be another one along soon enough

 

As it is, you've got the result you wanted and that's the main thing. A win is a win no matter how it comes about.

[fkofilee]

Thats a good result

 

Less time to deal with

[ericsbrother]

pleased you got the result you wanted without too much trouble. Hopefully you now know a little more about these operations and will come back for advice on wording a suitable response should you receive another one.