@argoshelpers UKPC Parking Charge When Collecting Heavy Argos Purchase

[CurlyMops]

Thank you Plodder and Beesnees .... It's so kind of everyone to take the time to post on here in order to help me. It feels like an emotional roller coaster sorting this out, but I feel better knowing that there is help here.

Rest assured that I'll check in here, before having any more dealings with the Parking Company.

I really can't thank you enough,

 

 

With kind regards,

Julie :o)

[Beesnees]

I really can't thank you enough,

 

Say hello to The Great Orme for me.

[CurlyMops]

Well, I've received the letter from the parking company (as expected) on 5th June.

It contains the POPLA reference number.

They are telling me that they are in the right, but I can appeal if I want to. They are reducing the fee back down to £60 if I pay now, or it will go up to £100 if POPLA do not go in my favour.

Before I get in touch with POPLA, I thought it would be wise to check with you all to make sure that I do not miss anything out, and any hints and tips to help me.

Thank you all once again for your time and patience,

 

 

With kind regards,

Julie

[Beesnees]

Have you gone on the POPLA site to check that they've given you a valid code? If they have, it's already cost 'em. More fool them, and you can now submit a written appeal citing a number of grounds. The experts will advise, but I would include:

1. Acting in good faith on advice given by Argos themselves - supported by a copy of your receipt.

2. The 'charge' (which in reality is no such thing - it's a punitive fine) bears no relation to a genuine pre-estimate of any losses that UKPC could have conceivably incurred under the circumstances you describe.

3. You want to see the contract that defines the legal relationship between the landowner and UKPC.

4. You dispute that any contract exists between you and UKPC under which they can pursue you for any damages. Especially so if you didn't notice the signs until after the 'event'.

 

If you don't win this on point 1. alone, I'll eat my hat, even if I hafta buy one.

[ericsbrother]

I would beef up the good faith argument to: I was instructed by an employee of the landlord to park how I did and this instruction and authority overrides any contract thay could possibly be formed.

You should then ask for sight of the contract they have with the landlord should they believe this not to be the case

Then no loss caused so amount demanded is not a schedule of loss nor a genuine pr-estimate of loss caused to UKPC should it be determined that a contract actually exists.

I suggest that you list your reasons for appeal in that sort of order as each flows from the one before so if they dont have permission to claim in their own name it doesnt matter whether the amount is a contractual obligation becuse no contract can be formed anyway. See what I mean?

[Beesnees]

Hmm, not sure if you mighta missed a trick there ericsbro. The added complication here is that Argos don't own the land. You might wanna rejig your advice in light of that fact.

[ericsbrother]

Argos are then the agent/occupier so my point still stands that their instruction trumps the parking co's contract.

[Beesnees]

fair dinkum. & slam dunk.

[CurlyMops]

Thank you so much for your replies ..... I'm a bit confused about asking to see the contract? Would I be asking the parking company for this? Also .... if they were so convinced that they are in the right, then why have they dropped the fine to £60? If they are convinced they are in the right, and it has now cost them money, then my instincts tell me that they'd go for the £100.

 

 

Their letter states "we have investigated your appeal based on the information you have submitted and confirm that this Parking Charge was correctly issued because there are sufficient signs at the Daniel Owen Shopping Precinct warning drivers that should they park their vehicle without displaying a valid permit this will result in a Parking Charge being issued to the vehicle"

 

 

I'll spend some time wording my letter to POPLA, then put it on here, to check that I have done it correctly, if that is alright? It'll take me a while to word it correctly though.

 

 

Thank you all once again,

Kind regards,

 

 

Julie

[renegadeimp]

Is this in mold? That just around the corner from me. I wouldn't worry though, this outfit can't touch you. At least they're not as bad as PE at aldi down the road

[ericsbrother]

You ask POPLA to force UKPC to provide you a copy of their contract with the landlord. Most parking companies wont do this (probably becuse so many of them are faulty in the crucial parts) so they lose because they havent shown a right to make contracts with the motorist.

Dont take any notice of what the parking co says in their rejection letter to you , as long as you have the POPLA code it means nothing for future argument.

[Beesnees]

.... if they were so convinced that they are in the right, then why have they dropped the fine to £60?

 

One of the oldest tricks in their book. Anything is better than nothing, so they make you a 'tempting' offer to settle ex-tribunal. Yeah, really tempting that - how could you possibly refuse? Why would you wanna go to the trouble of a POPLA appeal when you can just handover £60? And when they get your POPLA defence, they'll know it's game over.

[dx100uk]

Fine?

 

 

dx

[Beesnees]

Fine?

 

dx

 

Yes thx. How you doin'?

[dx100uk]

 

I was pointing out you keep using the word fine.

 

it is not a fine its a speculative invoice..

 

dx

[Beesnees]

 

I was pointing out you keep using the word fine.

 

it is not a fine its a speculative invoice..

 

dx

 

Well that joke fell like a lead balloon.

 

Since it bears no relation to actual losses, it's a speculative invoice for punitive damages, aka fine. That they're not allowed to call it such, or have any powers to impose or enforce it, is another matter and not in dispute.

[renegadeimp]

Nope. You're wrong. A fine can only be levied by an appropriate authority. It's not what they call it that's the problem. They simply are.not allowed to call it one because it isn't one. It's a penalty charge. Even the law says so.

[Beesnees]

This is argument over semantics. I know it's not a fine by any legal definition of the word. Yet you agree it's a penalty charge. The PPC's dare not use even that word to describe their so-called charges. That's why the p in pcn stands for parking, not penalty, is it not? They know full well they cannot enforce a penalty on anyone, let alone a fine.

[CurlyMops]

Well then,

 

Thank you all for the information and support re: POPLA.

 

 

I've tried to condense all the information in to a letter, which I'll put on here for you to see.

 

 

Hopefully I've not misunderstood any of it, or missed bits out .

... If I have, please feel free to let me know, and I'll correct it.

 

 

My intention is to email it to POPLA on Monday.

I've been putting off writing this letter, as whilst I can talk the hind legs off a donkey,

when it comes to putting my thoughts on to paper, it takes me a damn sight longer!!!

 

 

Must be a throw back from having bright red and green pen marks scrawled all over my work at school,

though hopefully it helped me to 'get it right' in the end.

 

Here it is then ..... I await your thoughts :o)

 

Dear POPLA

 

I am writing to you for your help.

 

I have been issued with a Parking Charge, and have been in contact with UKPC to explain that I had permission from Argos to be there, (with proof),

but they still want me to pay the parking charge. I am therefore writing to you for your help to sort this out.

 

On 22 - 3 - 2015, I visited the rear entrance of Argos, in order for me to pay for, and collect a heavy and bulky item which I had ordered on line.

 

It was a Sunday, the car park had many empty spaces, was very quiet, and I was there for a very short time, around 5 – 10 minutes,

whilst I went in to the shop to pay for the item, and to let them know that I was parked at the rear entrance for them to put the item in to my car.

 

 

When I returned to my car, the parking charge ticket had been placed on my windscreen.

 

 

I went back in to the shop to tell them, and ask them to sort it out, but was told that the land did not belong to them, and it was nothing to do with them.

If that is the case, then I could not understand why they were telling me that it was alright to pick the item up from their back door.

 

I enclose the receipt as proof of my business there, and as you can see, there is just one minutes difference between the time on the receipt

, and the time the parking charge was issued.

 

The receipt states at the bottom, that I should "Collect your goods from the back door", which is what I was doing. .

The time the vehicle was parked was well within the discretionary period allowed by the BPA's Code of Practice.

 

The car park was not one where you needed to buy a ticket.

The amount of the Parking Charge of £60 (now £100) bears no relation to the genuine pre-estimate of any losses that UKPC could have conceivably incurred.

I would like to see the contract that defines the legal relationship between the landowner and UKPC.

 

I dispute that any contract exists between myself and UKPC under which they could pursue me for any damages,

as I cannot see where I have caused them any loss.

 

I do so hope that you can help me to sort this out.

 

I am enclosing copies of the receipt as proof of my business to be where I was, for the short time it took to enable me to pay for,

and have the item placed in my car.

 

If you need any further information, please feel free to contact me.

 

I look forward to hearing from you,

 

Kind Regards, ... etc.

[Beesnees]

It's not a bad effort - just a bit too pen-friendish. You need to be a bit more curt/formal, as in

 

Sirs,

 

APPEAL CODE NO. XXXXXXXXX

Re PCN Ref XXXXXXXXX issued to me on XX XX XXXX by XXXXX.

 

The 'charge' is appealed on the following grounds:

 

1. I acted in good faith on specific instructions given to me by store staff, who advised me to........etc etc. I attach a copy of the evidence that supports my claim, and even mentions the instruction that was also given to me verbally.

 

2. Under these circumstances, the tenant (Argos) can be construed in law as acting as the landowners' agent, and I believe the instructions referred to above override any contract that exists between UKPC and the landlord.

 

3. For the same reason, I contend it overrides any contract purported to exist between UKPC and me under which they can have any legal entitlement to pursue me for punitive damages.

 

etc

etc.

 

Get the idea?

[armadillo71]

You must include in your POPLA appeal that you wish to see the following from UKPC;

 

The breakdown of the genuine pre estimate of loss for the charge.

 

 

Proof by sight of contract, that UKPC have lawful authority from the landowner to issue*parking chargeNotices.

 

 

That the charge is not punitive.

[Beesnees]

For the avoidance of doubt, my points were not intended to be comprehensive (hence the etc etc). They were intended as a kinda 'template' that you should use when constructing all your other points, including those cited by Armadillo.

[CurlyMops]

Thank you Beesnees and Armadillo71 :o)

 

 

I've taken on board your comments, and re-jigged my letter to incorporate everything you've said. Your time taken to help me (and indeed everyone else who has contributed!) has been much appreciated.

I've sent my appeal off, along with copies of the receipt and the thing which was stuck to my windscreen (ticket / charge / hopeful invoice ....?)

I'll let you know how I get on.

If I fail, it will be interesting to see what tricks they have when it comes to getting Blood out of a Stone!

Thank you all once again,

With kind regards,

Julie :o)

[Beesnees]

You won't fail.

[CurlyMops]

Good Evening,

I've just received an email from POPLA which says it's for information only. It's 35 pages long, and consists of the information I've given them and the information the parking company have given them. The parking company are saying that Argos had no right to tell me to park behind the shop, as they do not own the land. they also go on to quote all sorts of things ...... cases which have been taken to court where it's been decided that it is ok to charge the amounts .. and on and on. Most of it is in a 'law lingo', which is totally alien to me. It's about time they were made to use language that people can understand.

I'm going to assume that I don't have to do anything at this point. I'll await the conclusion.

If I get made to pay .... then I will be on the tail of Argos ....... the mood I'm in at the minute, I'm going to hang draw and quarter them. How dare they say it is alright to park somewhere where they have no authority over!

Anyway ..... just thought I'd let you know where I'm at ..... :o)

 

 

Kind regards,

 

 

Julie