HCEO Threatened Court application to gain entry on SE Water CCJ

[innertemple]

I had a visit from a HCEO today in relation to a high court writ for unpaid water bill totalling £1800.

 

After explaining I was attempting to sort finances in order to apply for bankruptcy and that I had no other money or assets,

he said if he could enter the house and see that i did not have enough goods to enable the debt and charges to be paid,

he would report that back to the creditor and they would be unlikely to attempt to control the goods for sale.

 

I was cagey about this to say the least.

I said i was unwilling to let him in for obvious reasons.

He said that if he was not allowed in and I made no payment then the creditor

can then make an application to the court to allow them/him entry to seize goods.

 

I asked how that was possible as this was residential.

He said they would apply against 'me' and they would be allowed to gain entry forcibly.

I said that I would not allow them entry, to which he said i would be arrested for obstruction.

 

I have never allowed anyone in the house and today i spoke to him on my doorstep with the door closed.

 

I am running around at the moment trying to get family to lend me what i need left to apply for bankruptcy,

but he was deliberately trying to scare me and made me think he could get a court order and gain entry by force.

 

Please help, I am confused by the changes in the law last year.

 

thanks in advance

[wonkeydonkey]

I had a visit from a HCEO today in relation to a high court writ for unpaid water bill totalling £1800.

After explaining I was attempting to sort finances in order to apply for bankruptcy and that I had no other money or assets, he said if he could enter the house and see that i did not have enough goods to enable the debt and charges to be paid, he would report that back to the creditor and they would be unlikely to attempt to control the goods for sale.

I was cagey about this to say the least.

I said i was unwilling to let him in for obvious reasons. He said that if he was not allowed in and I made no payment then the creditor can then make an application to the court to allow them/him entry to seize goods.

I asked how that was possible as this was residential. He said they would apply against 'me' and they would be allowed to gain entry forcibly. I said that I would not allow them entry, to which he said i would be arrested for obstruction.

I have never allowed anyone in the house and today i spoke to him on my doorstep with the door closed.

I am running around at the moment trying to get family to lend me what i need left to apply for bankruptcy, but he was deliberately trying to scare me and made me think he could get a court order and gain entry by force.

Please help, I am confused by the changes in the law last year.

thanks in advance

 

Load of bull**it, if you refuse to let them in they can do nothing, it would be for the creditor to explore other (very costly) options of enforcement not the attending officer. Among the options available would be a charging order on your home (if owned by you) or application for bankruptcy (save you a fortune if they went that route)

 

In the meantime you can apply to stay execution of the writ using form N244, the grounds would be your pending filing for bankruptcy. If your circumstances show you to be in receipt of certain benefits you can also file form ex160 for fee remission to obtain the stay.

[innertemple]

Hi,

thank you for clarifying that for me, I found the changes a little confusing. Thanks for the link, I have downloaded the form.

Do you think it is worth me contacting them to see if they would make me bankrupt, or will it make little or no difference to their decision?

 

Thanks again

[wonkeydonkey]

Hi,

thank you for clarifying that for me, I found the changes a little confusing. Thanks for the link, I have downloaded the form.

Do you think it is worth me contacting them to see if they would make me bankrupt, or will it make little or no difference to their decision?

 

Thanks again

 

It would be the creditor who decides if they want to explore the possibility of going down the bankruptcy route,

 

 

it is a very costly way forward for them and akin to them 'cutting of their nose to spite their face' as they will still not get a penny.

 

 

If you refuse the attending officer entry they will eventually have to return the writ to their client marked unenforcable,

 

 

the creditor will then have to decide where they want to go with that.

 

 

It is possible they will just farm it out again to another HCEO a writ is valid for 12months but can be renewed on request.

[ploddertom]

Which HCEO?

[innertemple]

It was an enforcement officer acting on behalf of HCEO Simon Williamson at Court enforcement services ltd. I looked him up on the register and it had Simon Williamson registered as the business name 'Millibank Group'.

[innertemple]

My missus recorded the enforcement officer at the door as he lied about the powers they had, could get and how they could force entry and I would be arrested if I refused and obstructed their entry.

Is it worth complaining? and if so should i send a video?

[dx100uk]

tell us about the water bill too who as it

and how old is it?

 

 

dx

[innertemple]

The reps name was Smith. A chubby man, he stood in a police style uniform, wearing a short sleeved shirt two sizes too small for him and played with his arm tattoos while trying to tell me how much he was helping me.

[innertemple]

South East Water Bill. It is a couple of years old and will form part of my bankruptcy so i have a fresh start, it has grown i the meantime to the £1800 outstanding.

[ploddertom]

You should make a complaint to the HCEOA,

 

 

yes they are a trade body paid for by High Court Enforcement officers

but they do take most complaints seriously

 

 

http://www.hceoa.org.uk/regulatory-information/want-to-complain.html .

 

 

The Authorised HCEO you mention basically rents himself out to anyone wishing to hire his services.

 

 

I am of the belief he cannot be aware of all that goes on in his name.

 

 

If you happened to get the names of the attending minions

 

 

have you checked to see if they are suitably Certificated

 

 

http://certificatedbailiffs.justice.gov.uk/CertificatedBailiffs/

[wonkeydonkey]

It was an enforcement officer acting on behalf of HCEO Simon Williamson at Court enforcement services ltd. I looked him up on the register and it had Simon Williamson registered as the business name 'Millibank Group'.

 

Well that says it all!!!

 

 

Simon Williamson's main business is the running of an auction house with the 'enforcement business'

being nothing more than a side line of which he has little 'expertise'.

 

 

They are members of the HCEOA therefore, once you have complained direct to monkey's

 

 

you can then go to the organ grinder if you don't get a satisfactory reply.

[innertemple]

Yes the agent is certified. A Certificated Enforcement Agent (Bailiff). Self employed. So the HCEO is handing writs out to minions.

Should I give the HCEO notice of the agents behaviour first then?

[wonkeydonkey]

Yes the agent is certified. A Certificated Enforcement Agent (Bailiff). Self employed. So the HCEO is handing writs out to minions.

Should I give the HCEO notice of the agents behaviour first then?

 

Yes...you will need to follow their complaints procedure through to the end as they must be given the opportunity to investigate your complaint and address it. Once you have done that and if you are still dissatisfied with the result you can escalate it up to the HCEOA.

[innertemple]

Okay thanks.

 

It seems that the hceo writ holder probably will not be aware or care about the agents behaviour as they seem to have thumbs in many pies.

 

 

The business is named after the street the gym he owns is in.

 

 

Obviously doesn't have enough money and needed to 'enterprise' lol.

 

Thanks for the info, after I have gone through the forms ill get onto it.

 

Many thanks again

[dx100uk]

watch te video carefully

 

 

did he actually say he could get a warrant to force entry specifically naming your house/home

 

 

or that 'he could' generally get one for a n other purpose

external buildings he can.

 

 

they can be quite clever with their words making you think its implied.

[HCEOs]

There is a provision in Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 for an Enforcement Agent to make an application to enter a property. I would be very surprised if one was issued in this case however.

 

Entry under warrant

 

15(1) If an enforcement agent applies to the court it may issue a warrant authorising him to enter specified premises to search for and take control of goods.

 

(2) Before issuing the warrant the court must be satisfied that all these conditions are met—

 

(a) an enforcement power has become exercisable;

 

(b) there is reason to believe that there are goods on the premises that the enforcement power will be exercisable to take control of if the warrant is issued;

 

© it is reasonable in all the circumstances to issue the warrant.

 

(3) The warrant authorises repeated entry to the same premises, subject to any restriction in regulations.

Edited March 17, 2015 by HCEOs
i

[innertemple]

Out of interest, why would you be surprised if one was issued here?

 

I would have thought for a bill debt such that it is and the fact it is social housing

that it would not be 'reasonable',

 

 

not sure how the rules above are meant to be interpreted

as they seem dangerously vague and open to misuse

[innertemple]

watch te video carefully

 

 

did he actually say he could get a warrant to force entry specifically naming your house/home

 

 

or that 'he could' generally get one for a n other purpose

external buildings he can.

 

 

they can be quite clever with their words making you think its implied.

 

mm, good point, I will check over it again

[innertemple]

'they could now apply to court to let us in' is exactly what he said, then went on to say that i would be arrested if i tried stopping them from then entering

 

Is this still the case? -

 

A bailiff cannot force entry unless he has permission of the court.

 

 

Paragraph 15(1) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.

The bailiff must carry it with him and show it on demand, Paragraph 26(1) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.

If you have been handed a "locksmith" flyer then make the bailiff produce evidence of that authority.

 

A Paragraph 15 warrant of entry has only been applied in law in connection with unpaid criminal court fines.

Rule 10© of the Criminal Procedure (Amendment) Rules 2015. It does not apply to any other kind of debt.

[i hate bailiffs]

'they could now apply to court to let us in' is exactly what he said, then went on to say that i would be arrested if i tried stopping them from then entering

 

Time he went home and changed his shirt with that amount of dribble coming out his mouth

 

If you refuse him entry and nothing to levy on outside he is a powerless bully

[innertemple]

Well i have got to concentrate on getting the rest of my bankruptcy fees together,

so guess its a good incentive to not have to deal with these thugs.

 

 

Its just tough getting that kind of money with 3 kids and my missus to support.

 

 

Nothing like a good dose of debt to make you feel worthless.

 

When i told him I wouldn't let anyone in, he said 'that's your choice'.

And there I was thinking we weren't free to make 'choices' here in the uk anymore

 

If he comes back ill be surprised if he's alone.

[HCEOs]

Out of interest, why would you be surprised if one was issued here?

 

I would have thought for a bill debt such that it is and the fact it is social housing that it would not be 'reasonable', not sure how the rules above are meant to be interpreted as they seem dangerously vague and open to misuse

 

That's the point, whilst he is right that he could make an application to force entry

I would suggest that with the details available it would be unlikely that a Judge would grant that power.

 

The creditor would also have to consider the costs in doing so and the likelihood of recovering enough assets to satisfy all of the sums due.

 

However, if the circumstances were different e.g. you lived in a £1M house it is probably well worth the application and would probably be granted.

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

Applications are being made under schedule 15 for non criminal matters and are being granted. Where its been proven the debtors are ignoring/refusing to pay and have well in excess of sufficient assets. The courts are granting them.

 

As hceo has rightly said, for a normal small debt, the costs and the likely hood that it wouldn't be granted mean that its unlikely it would be even applied for.

 

The agent was able to say that they can apply for a warrant to enter if the debtor refuses access.

 

This is a very different process to the application for access under a criminal fine warrant. That fine warrant ALREADY gives the power to force entry when issued, but the enforcement agent must satisfy the court, usually by telephone, that its safe and productive to use the the warrant to that extent.

[brassnecked]

Remember a dwelling might well in these straightened times of austerity be furnished with big ticket items from Brighthouse, so the 55" TV, the laptop, and the smartphone would be untouchable, the remaining contents either exempt or of such low value that the EA looks silly after forcing entry.

 

Incidentally would the phone be fair game if the debtor ended a call, and put it down for a second before intending to make another call, as it wasn't in use for 10 seconds to get paperwork to show the EA if it was PAYG rather than contract ?

 

Is a Gypsies Caravan, or a homeless family living in ones caravan after they were evicted for rent arrears still exempt? and are mobility scooters fair game, as I have head of cases where the EA says can't have the Motability car, but we can have the scooter.