Rundles Chasing Council Tax

[MoominMama25]

Hi all.

 

3 weeks ago Rundles sent me a "notice of enforcement".

 

They said I owed council tax from 2010/11.

 

We had been under the impression our landlord was paying it, which was incorrect.

I cannot find a copy of my tenancy from this date to prove this, however, so accept I must pay it.

However, this is the first contact I have had in 5 years.

 

Rundles refuse to provide me with a copy of the liability order or any relevant documents showing what we owe etc.

 

Rather than provide a copy they have just proceeded to threaten a removal of goods , "with or without" us present.

 

Am I right in thinking I have a right to proof of the debt etc. from them?

 

Also, had we been aware the LL wasn't paying, we would have applied for council tax benefit for which we would have been entitled.

 

 

Is there anything we can do about this now?

 

Thanks in advance for all help

[ploddertom]

Hi & welcome to CAG I will move you to the Bailiff Forum for further help on this.

[MoominMama25]

Hi & welcome to CAG I will move you to the Bailiff Forum for further help on this.

 

Thank you

[lookinforinfo]

I guess that you no longer live at that address and where you have now moved to has a different Council which would perhaps explain the delay in contacting you.

 

Have you contacted the Council involved since they would know how much the Liability Order was for 5 years ago? How long did you stay at that property and

did bailiffs try to contact you while you were there?

Since the Rundles letter {NOE} have they called round as that will incur a charge of £235 if they are charging you under the new legisaltion?

 

It may be that the LO was issued under your old address so that is something else you must find out from the Council. They should also be able to give you a breakdown of any bailiff fees incurred since the LO was first issued.

 

Most tenancies tend to have the tenant pay the Council tax and you will probably have learnt that yourself now if you have had further tenancies.

Council benefit is normally backdated by a maximum of 6 months so 5 years would be stretching it.

 

You do need to contact the Council urgently if you haven't done so already. What else have you done in the past three weeks to resolve the matter? Time is not

on your side.

In the meantime, do not open your door to the bailiffs and make sure that if you have a car you keep it a good ten minutes away from your property as they may

well clamp it.

[dx100uk]

Here is something to be getting on with.

.

First of all establish from the Council how much was owing etc

.

You need to speak to someone at the Council and ask the following questions:

1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you

2 - the dates they were obtained

3 - the addresses they were for

4 - the period of time each covers

5 - how much each one was for

6 - how much is still outstanding

7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement

8 - the dates & amounts of any payments

...........................

.

Next you need to send off for a breakdown of the charges the Bailiff applied.

.

Here's an example,

use and ADAPT at will and best sent initially by email backed up by a copy in the post.

.

"From:

My Name

My Address

.

To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

.

Ref: Account No: 123456

.

Dear Sir

.

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

.

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

.

This is NOT a Subject Access Request

uest under the Data Protection Act S7 1998

so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

.

I require this information within 14 days.

.

Yours faithfully

.

Ripped off customer"

.

 

 

and just to re-assure you

 

 

there is NO right of forced entry for CTAX 'debts'

 

 

so don't fall for that old crap.

 

 

sadly rundles can be rather 'economical' with the truth.

 

 

dx

[brassnecked]

The removal of goods even in your absence would be anything of value in a garden or a car outside. as previously stated they cannot force entry for Council tax at this stage anyway.

[Bailiff Advice]

Hi all.

 

3 weeks ago Rundles sent me a "notice of enforcement".

 

They said I owed council tax from 2010/11.

 

We had been under the impression our landlord was paying it, which was incorrect. I cannot find a copy of my tenancy from this date to prove this, however, so accept I must pay it. However, this is the first contact I have had in 5 years.

 

Rundles refuse to provide me with a copy of the liability order or any relevant documents showing what we owe etc.

 

Rather than provide a copy they have just proceeded to threaten a removal of goods , "with or without" us present.

 

Am I right in thinking I have a right to proof of the debt etc. from them?

 

Also, had we been aware the LL wasn't paying, we would have applied for council tax benefit for which we would have been entitled.

 

Thanks in advance for all help

 

A Liability Order is not a document that is actually sent to a debtor and the enforcement company will not receive it either. Instead, the enforcement company are sent by electronic means a list of all Liability Orders granted by the court, the debtor's details and the amount of the LO.

 

A Liability Order is not 'statute barred' (although a recent ruling has made significant changes in this area and is causing great difficult to local authorities) and in an event, the debt in your case is only 5 years old (which is actually quite recent from enquiries that are seen).

 

I would strongly suggest that you take the advice of others on here and approach the council with any evidence you have that would support your belief that you would have been exempt from CT at that time. Some councils are better then others and will be willing to backdate the application. The only way of finding out is to ask.

 

Rundles (like all enforcement companies) are duty bound to enforce the warrant on behalf of the creditor (in this case the local authority) and any dispute about the debt is not theirs...but the local authority who instruct them.

 

Please do post back once you have spoken with the council.

[E Munch]

It is worth pointing out that the council have a hierarchy of liability they have to follow to decide who should be pursued for unpaid council tax. Even if you have an agreement that shows the landlord has to pay, if they subsequently do not pay the council will have to pursue whoever is at the top of the hierarchy which will usually be the occupant. In other words even if they sympathise with you it may be that he law says you have to pay. Below is some wording copied from the CAB website about this point:-

 

 

"If only one person lives in a property they will be the liable person. If more than one person lives there, a system called the hierarchy of liability is used to work out who is the liable person. The person at the top, or nearest to the top, of the hierarchy is the liable person. Two people at the same point of the hierarchy will both be liable.

The hierarchy of liability is:

 

1. a resident owner-occupier who owns either the leasehold or freehold of all or part of the property
   
2. a resident tenant
   
3. a resident who lives in the property and who is a licensee. This means that they are not a tenant, but have permission to stay there
   
4. any resident living in the property, for example, a squatter
   
5. an owner of the property where no one is resident."
   

[Coughdrop]

It is worth pointing out that the council have a hierarchy of liability they have to follow to decide who should be pursued for unpaid council tax. Even if you have an agreement that shows the landlord has to pay, if they subsequently do not pay the council will have to pursue whoever is at the top of the hierarchy which will usually be the occupant. In other words even if they sympathise with you it may be that he law says you have to pay. Below is some wording copied from the CAB website about this point:-

 

 

"If only one person lives in a property they will be the liable person. If more than one person lives there, a system called the hierarchy of liability is used to work out who is the liable person. The person at the top, or nearest to the top, of the hierarchy is the liable person. Two people at the same point of the hierarchy will both be liable.

The hierarchy of liability is:

 

 

1. a resident owner-occupier who owns either the leasehold or freehold of all or part of the property
   
2. a resident tenant
   
3. a resident who lives in the property and who is a licensee. This means that they are not a tenant, but have permission to stay there
   
4. any resident living in the property, for example, a squatter
   
5. an owner of the property where no one is resident."
   

 

This is interesting. I have read similar previously where guarantors are involved, but not in exactly the same context. With the guarantor situation it was a contractual term in the tenancy agreement, and in a household of 6 there was a nominated lead tenant. Where does the council draw its right from to assert a heirarchy if the tenancy agreement specifies the landlord is responsible for paying the council tax?

[E Munch]

Not so much a right, more a responsibility or obligation.

 

 

It arises out of the Local Government Finance Act 1992 which is the Act which was used to create the Council Tax. Paragraph 6 starts as follows.

 

 

6 Persons liable to pay council tax.

(1)The person who is liable to pay council tax in respect of any chargeable dwelling and any day is the person who falls within the first paragraph of subsection (2) below to apply, taking paragraph (a) of that subsection first, paragraph (b) next, and so on.

(2)A person falls within this subsection in relation to any chargeable dwelling and any day if, on that day—

(a)he is a resident of the dwelling and has a freehold interest in the whole or any part of it;

(b)he is such a resident and has a leasehold interest in the whole or any part of the dwelling which is not inferior to another such interest held by another such resident;

©he is both such a resident and a statutory [secure or introductory tenant]of the whole or any part of the dwelling;

(d)he is such a resident and has a contractual licence to occupy the whole or any part of the dwelling;

(e)he is such a resident; or

(f)he is the owner of the dwelling.

(3)Where, in relation to any chargeable dwelling and any day, two or more persons fall within the first paragraph of subsection (2) above to apply, they shall each be jointly and severally liable to pay the council tax in respect of the dwelling and that day.

[MoominMama25]

Hi,

Apologies, I had trouble locating my post again.

 

I have spoken to the council involved who have frozen bailiff action and sent me a copy of the liability order.

 

I received no contact from the council or the bailiffs whilst at the property, and all council tax letter were sent to my landlord, so we're forwarded to him.

 

The council have admitted they didn't attempt to contact me at all with regards to council tax until after I had left the property.

 

I offered to come to a payment arrangement with the council but they refused and insist I must go through Rundles,

but I was informed that Rundles will not make a payment arrangement unless I allow them to put a levy on my goods.

 

I have been on the electoral roll at all addresses and my landlord had a forwarding address,

so there's really no excuse for them to have sent letters to my old address.

 

They also claim that they were fully aware that, when they started writing to me at the old address, I was no longer living there.

 

I am more than happy to come to an arrangement with them,

although I am annoyed as the landlord clearly didn't notify them until after I had left

as he knew I would have pulled him up on it with a copy of the tenancy agreement at the time stating he would pay.

 

Had he just been honest from the outset then I could have applied for CT benefit at the time,

which would have maybe halved the amount we owed as we were both working but on a low wage.

 

As I say, I'd happily make an arrangement with the countil, but I do not want the bailiffs involved as I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them,

and do NOT want a levy on my goods.

 

Had the council contacted me directly I would have sorted something out,

I think it's unfair they've gone in all guns blazing rather than going

"oh, we have an address now, let's contact the debtors directly".

[Bailiff Advice]

 

I offered to come to a payment arrangement with the council but they refused and insist I must go through Rundles, but I was informed that Rundles will not make a payment arrangement unless I allow them to put a levy on my goods.

 

 

 

Did the above comment come from Rundles or the local authority?

 

This is NOT correct and I am not happy to hear that debtors are being told this information.

 

The fact is that a payment arrangement can be made without a levy being made upon goods.

[MoominMama25]

That came from Rundles who said they would need to see what valuables we have before coming to any agreements.

 

I have today offered to pay them £10 per fortnight (as that is all that circumstances will allow at the moment). They have refused and will continue to refuse anything other than £250 per month (total owed is £1,333.69)

Instead they have threatened to take our vehicle. This is a vehicle worth £160 and used for business purposes.

What can I do?

[brassnecked]

That came from Rundles who said they would need to see what valuables we have before coming to any agreements.

 

I have today offered to pay them £10 per fortnight (as that is all that circumstances will allow at the moment). They have refused and will continue to refuse anything other than £250 per month (total owed is £1,333.69)

Instead they have threatened to take our vehicle. This is a vehicle worth £160 and used for business purposes.

What can I do?

It might be time to work out an Income and Expenditure form, showing what is affordable, send it to Brundlefly & co,m to back up your offer, and remind trhem that they are not legally bound to have a Controlled Goods Order to make an arrangement, you could also send a Formal Complaint to Head of Revenues, copied to CEO, Elected Council Leader and your local Councillor, who you should contact for assistance, tell the Councillor, their Agent Bumbles & Co are intransigent, will not set up an affordable agreement and want to remove a vehicle worth £160, which would be counterproductive as it would render you unable to work, need to go on JSA and get the inevitable Sanction that would follow having to stop work and make it impossible to then pay diddly squat.

Edited April 16, 2015 by brassnecked
correct typos from stupid 'O Clock

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

Rundles will be set a time limit on these collections so no, they wont accept a £10 per fortnight arrangement as it will breach the collection contract.

What they will do if the offer is to low, is send an ea out to assess. If the ea deems you to have no goods and no money, then it will be nulla'd off and the council may then look at £10 per fortnight.

 

If the EA thinks you have sufficient assets then he will tell you so and tell you how much he wants per month. If you have nothing, and really cant pay, then don't worry, there is nothing the EA can do. But the council WILL be made aware if you are living a life of luxury but claiming you can pay little or nothing weekly.

[MoominMama25]

Thank you for all the advice.

I have again tried to speak to Rundles who are just saying 6 months to clear or nothing. This also includes their extortionate fees on top, like fees for hand posting a letter when Royal Mail would suffice (as they didn't knock the door or anything, just posted a letter)

I'm going to try writing directly to the council saying I won't let the bailiffs in and will also be making a complaint about Rundles' threats to remove my property whilst I'm not home.

[Coughdrop]

Given their continued refusal to accept an affordable repayment plan, it leaves you with little choice but to use an option that was always available to you anyway.

 

I'd keep the EA's out, if you have a car, move it onto somebody else's private land or away from your premises so they can't take control of it and refuse to deal with the EA at all - do absolutely nothing with them.

 

 

Write to the Council saying you're more than willing to pay, but cannot afford to do so at the rate being demanded by their appointed EA's.Thus, you'll be putting the money to a side (make sure you do this), and when the debt is recalled you'll willingly agree a repayment plan with the Council directly.

 

 

Explain you're more than happy to come to an affordable and sustainable repayment plan now , but can only do so once the debt is recalled. They will no doubt state they can't do this, but they can.

 

This letter should be sent to the CEO of the council and copied to the Head of Revenues.

[MoominMama25]

The council have said that apparently this is the 5th bailiff company they've given the job to, and that if this bailiff company failed to collect, then they'd just move onto the next rather than deal with me themselves.