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southwest trains - Forgot HM Forces Railcard


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Firstly I'm going to ask the OP to tell us what the date that is stamped in the centre of the Railcard reads please? (and there is good reason for asking)

 

The days when HMF Railcards were issued free of charge to serving personnel are long gone I'm afraid and for the last few years those entitled to hold them have had to pay a small fee. That of course puts the onus of responsibility to check and ensure you keep them up to date with the purchaser.

 

As others have said, the best thing you could have done at this early stage was to wait and see if you received a letter because there is always a chance that the inspector might not have put the report in, may have lost his notes, or, the company may have failed to complete the admin process and were unable to do so. That said, you have now contacted them and flagged up the issue.

 

You should not tell them anything that they don't already know, but should be truthful in stating the facts of what occurred.

 

Unfortunately, it is a generally slow process and any letter can take as much as 6 weeks at busy times.

 

If pursued, this is unlikely to be a Byelaw matter as a more serious charge can be alleged, but I'll reserve further comment on that until we get a response from the OP.

 

It has 23rd November 2012 stamped on railcard.

 

 

I phoned up but didn't give any details,

just described the situation but no personal info was discussed.

 

 

unless they are able to record the call through capturing my mobile number.

 

 

What is the more serious charge that can be alleged?

 

 

What are my prospects,what are the chances of settling out of court?

 

also, the guy was foreign,

 

 

i am pretty certain that he will follow this up,

he seemed possibly a new recruit, was quite rigid.

 

 

Better to sit it out you feel or better to contact southwesttrains and try to nip in the bud or is that highly unlikely?

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Wait until you receive a letter, you will then have the unique case reference allocated to your file and will know what they allege.

 

OK, you held no valid Railcard for more than a year and claimed a discount to which you were not entitled.

 

 

Worst case scenario is that they could charge you with intent to avoid the correct fare,

 

 

but best thing is to wait until you get a letter and then come back and tell us what it says.

 

Once you know that you will be able to frame a response and we may be able to help you to seek an administrative settlement.

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'intent to avoid the correct fare', is this within the 1889 regulation of railways act?

 

 

one final thing

 

 

should i renew my rail card tomorrow

 

 

?or would this appear like more of a case where i have deliberately avoided renewing until i have been caught,

or should i just leave it, because i dont use the train that often.

 

 

do you feel would they appreciate a railcard renewal as good intent or suspicion?

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neither IMHO.

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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'intent to avoid the correct fare', is this within the 1889 regulation of railways act?

 

 

Yes, they could lay the charge by framing wording to explain such as; 'intent to avoid a fare, or part thereof by claiming a discount to which he was not entitled, contrary to Section 5.3.a of The Regulation of Railways Act [1889]'. It would be up to the prosecution to convince the Magistrates that you knew what you were doing.

 

 

one final thing

 

 

should i renew my rail card tomorrow

 

 

?or would this appear like more of a case where i have deliberately avoided renewing until i have been caught,

or should i just leave it, because i dont use the train that often.

 

do you feel would they appreciate a railcard renewal as good intent or suspicion?

 

 

It could appear to the prosecutor that you have only renewed because you were caught, but how would they know that you have renewed unless you tell them.

 

They are not in the slightest interested in what happened after you were reported and the Magistrates cannot take it into account as having any bearing on what happened before you travelled.

 

The Act is clear; it says 'having not previously paid his fare...' Your fare, as a person who did not hold a valid Railcard, was the undiscounted full fare.

 

If I were you I would renew anyway if you need to travel by train in future, but telling the company that you have done so has no relevance and they will not check that you have done so now.

 

The fact is that it will not make one iota of difference to the case against you because you did not have a valid Railcard when you claimed the discount that you were reported for.

 

I would try to stop worrying because it may be that if & when you get a letter, it may be possible to negotiate an administrative closure. No news is good news.

 

I know that like everyone else you will be keen to clear this up, but in my experience it is very rare for anyone to be able to hurry this process along. Depending on just how busy that office is it can take from a few days to several weeks.

 

If you're lucky you'll get a letter in a few days, if you're even luckier you'll not hear anything at all.

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ok thanks again for continuing to provide input. I've taken the day off to try and get this all sorted, i spoke to the Citizens Advice who weren't very helpful, they just suggested speaking to a solicitor. I spoke to a railway officer a Salisbury station who suggested speaking to the Chief Clerk of the regiment and getting them to phone SouthWestTrains on my behalf for closure. I just have so many opinions, just don't no what route to take.

 

If I present my mitigating circumstances after receiving the first letter within this 14 day initial period and i am unable to be let off the hook (administrative closure route).

If I get summoned to court,charged with Section 5.3.a of The Regulation of Railways Act [1889] can I negotiate a financial settlement out of court at this stage and have the charges dropped?

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Hello again.

 

If I get summoned to court,charged with Section 5.3.a of The Regulation of Railways Act [1889] can I negotiate a financial settlement out of court at this stage and have the charges dropped?

 

You can continue to negotiate up to and including the court day, when you can ask to speak to the prosecutor. Have a read around the forum for cases that settled, it might clarify things for you.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Can the following help my case, would these be classed as mitigating circumstances?

 

-First time offence

-I genuinely didn’t realise that my railcard had expired.

-I am in fact a currently serving member of the armed forces

-It’s used infrequently and I never check it. (ive only travelled twice in the past year)

-My railcard has been inspected on a previous occasion and nobody had brought it to my attention that it was out of date.

-I didn’t realise that there were two parts the photo card and the actual railcard.

-I complied fully.

-I wasn’t disrespectful.

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everything you have done to date is commendable. BUT unnecessary..

and how many more people have to say how many more times

 

 

'wait for the letter'?

 

 

its as if you are not listening to the advise.

 

 

???????????????

 

 

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Can the following help my case, would these be classed as mitigating circumstances?

 

OK, sorry if anyone feels this is rude or patronising, but let's look at this with the applied 'observance of rules' that any military training will expect. This really is intended to help the OP

 

-First time offence

Makes no difference, the penalties prescribed by successful Court action are set down as the maximum for conviction of a first offence only and are likely to be more onerous for a second or subsequent conviction - it may be that a first offence isn't prosecuted, BUT that is entirely at the discretion of the rail company

 

-I genuinely didn’t realise that my railcard had expired.

Ignorance of a rule is not a defence in law, but may be put as mitigation

 

-I am in fact a currently serving member of the armed forces

This does not make any difference whatsoever, the law applies equally to all members of the public, HMF are not exempt in any way. In the eyes of the law it's just a job which the individual chose to take up.

 

-It’s used infrequently and I never check it. (ive only travelled twice in the past year)

Again, this makes no difference. It is always your responsibility to check that you hold a valid entitlement before claiming a concession. (Ever tried telling the RSM that your combat kit looks like a dog's toilet 'because I don't use it very often' ?)

 

-My railcard has been inspected on a previous occasion and nobody had brought it to my attention that it was out of date.

As I said in answer to the last point, it is your responsibility to make sure that it isn't out of date. If someone made a mistake previously and you got away with it, that doesn't mean you can continue to falsely claim entitlement.

 

-I didn’t realise that there were two parts the photo card and the actual railcard.

When you applied for the Railcard the conditions were made clear. In fact, where HMF Railcards are concerned the WO issuing makes sure that these are given with the first card. HMF Railcard conditions are probably explained to a holder more certainly than any other Railcard.

 

-I complied fully.

That is nothing less than expected of service personnel and in fact, the same applies to every person, including rail staff in such circumstances. Polite truthfulness and accuracy result in good reports, good communication and more likelihood of an administrative settlement.

 

-I wasn’t disrespectful.

I am pleased that is the case, if you had been disrespectful, swearing or abusive then the rail company representative would probably have reported evidence of a further charge of breach of Byelaw 6 [2005] and a report to the RMP might well have lead to a particularly salutary lesson.

 

 

I've had well over 30 years experience in revenue protection & prosecutions and have to say that definitely doesn't make anything I say any more valuable to you than any other contributor. You may choose to take whatever action or advice that you come to believe in, but I will say that I only offer suggestions based on my own experiences.

 

I frequently receive reports involving service personnel and often have officers ringing in from NCO's such as a Sergeant, maybe the WO1 who issued any Railcard through to Captain, Major etc. and they may be trying to either; 'badger and bluster' expecting that 'their man' will be 'let-off', or more frequently, once they are fully aware of the circumstances of the report, may ensure that due process is observed in one way or another..

 

Not too long ago in conversation with a Captain who wanted to know why his soldier had been reported and having been brought up to speed, he responded by saying 'I wonder why Pte......... thinks that trying to get an officer to 'shout' at a civilian was likely to make a difference?, Bloody fool.' I didn't feel that comment by me was necessary at all, however did feel that perhaps a lesson would certainly be learned.

 

Wait for the letter, you cannot make things worse by doing so.

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-I am in fact a currently serving member of the armed forces

 

''This does not make any difference whatsoever, the law applies equally to all members of the public, HMF are not exempt in any way. In the eyes of the law it's just a job which the individual chose to take up.''

 

 

 

yes I know, that was not what I meant however. I meant that I was entitled to the first issue of the HMF railcard as I am currently serving and still serving, however an offence was committed regardless.

 

il continue to wait out for the letter and again thanks for you're contributions.

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I know i've been told many times to wait for the letter from SWT,

however I thought there would be no harm in consulting with a solicitor and I gave the details of the case.

 

They have stated that they should be able to get this resolved before I get issued my first letter from South West Trains.

They are also of the opinion that it would be a good idea to get it resolved before the prosecution get hold of the case.

 

 

The solicitor has requested the following-

 

-Character reference from Commanding Officer

-Letter with my Armed Forces address printed on it

 

They state that they are able to contact SWT prosecution team and quote the MG11 ref, despite a case id not yet having been generated.

apparently it's knowing who to talk to in the department and they are in regular contact with SWT.

 

Also they mentioned-

-MY case stands a good chance of getting resolved

-SWT didn't adhere to their own policies (not sure about this one)

-My stance is to admit fault but that there was no intent.

 

They have quoted £450 plus VAT, seems like a lot. But would be worth if it could be resolved for peace of mind..

 

If you could reply at a time that suits you i'd appreciate it.

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rip off merchants.

 

 

I'd expect this to be resolved outside of court for a lot less that that figure

even IF IF IF you do get a letter.

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 4 weeks later...

hi,

 

 

as yet have still not recieved any correspondence from south west trains and the offence took place on the 28th of february.

 

 

I am now on 2 weeks easter leave and I am back in Northern Ireland.

 

 

I will now not be able to access my garrison post during this two week period therefore I may get my first letter during this time,

 

 

I may then miss the 14 day window to present my mitigating circumstances.

 

 

I am also due to deploy to france in mid april.

 

 

Should I just give them a call to try to get the matter resolved?

 

 

I have managed to get the prosecution number online.

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you don't know if there is even any matter too resolve though.

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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well i travelled without a railcard and my railcard was out of date.

 

I just don't see the harm in contacting them, find out whats going on, get early closure which they might appreciate.

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Can you ask someone to open your mail while you're away or is it locked?

If you're being deployed abroad you will have to tell them your address there, otherwise you would miss any communication.

It's true that there's a chance that you'll never receive anything, but if you can't monitor your mail you will have to contact them.

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as yet have still not recieved any correspondence from south west trains and the offence took place on the 28th of february.

 

 

Just a couple of points, firstly it is really important if you are corresponding with the TOC to be entirely accurate & truthful in any responses.

 

Your post, quoted here, states that the alleged offence occurred on 28th February and yet your first post in this thread is dated 21st February.

 

Secondly, when you were spoken to, did the inspector record your military ID number?

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Just a couple of points, firstly it is really important if you are corresponding with the TOC to be entirely accurate & truthful in any responses.

 

Your post, quoted here, states that the alleged offence occurred on 28th February and yet your first post in this thread is dated 21st February.

 

Secondly, when you were spoken to, did the inspector record your military ID number?

 

 

beg you're pardon it was 21st of february. Also, yes he recorded my military ID number.

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Just a couple of points, firstly it is really important if you are corresponding with the TOC to be entirely accurate & truthful in any responses.

 

Your post, quoted here, states that the alleged offence occurred on 28th February and yet your first post in this thread is dated 21st February.

 

Secondly, when you were spoken to, did the inspector record your military ID number?

 

why did you ask about whether the inspector recorded my military number?

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