Benefit overpayment tribunal hearing

[Soccerkid66]

Can anyone advise me hear. My partner has been seeking a tribunal hearing and made a request in August 2014 for a hearing. They sent a letter saying from the evidence they presume in all probability she was receiving payments when she should not have for one reason or another. We have awaited the tribunal hearing date only to be told by he council that no tribunal date has been applied for although they have our letter asking for one. The local authority have sent through a big folder with their evidence an when we told our solicitor he said he id not need to see it until we receive the actual date? which baffles me. My questions are should we look for someone else to represent her and can she be criminally prosecuted on the balance of probability?

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

Can you tell us a bit more about what happened please? How did the alleged overpayment occur and have you seen the local authority's calculations?

 

HB

[mikeymack2002]

It may help you if you request that your Local Authority (LA) provide you with ALL information help about you/your partner in regards to your claim file.

 

 

This is done by a way of a Subject Access Request (SAR) this will cost you £10 and the LA has 40 working days in which to provide you with that information.

 

 

The reason behind this will be to see if you sent or received anything in regards to your claim. It will also provide you with all of your awards and amounts. You may then find out where it has gone wrong in the first place.....

 

 

The LA will only give you some of the information in an advance disclosure (AD). There is a huge difference between a SAR and a AD

 

 

It may help your case if you ask for it now rather than at the last minute

 

 

A SAR costs £10-00 and you send this with a letter requesting this, best to send this one recorded delivery (RD) for proof should it be needed. You will need to sign the SAR and it may help If you can provide to the LA proof of your identity. A template SAR can be found here and adapt it to your needs.

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?387306-Full-Subject-Access-Request-**Updated-January-2015**

 

 

It could throw up some important information and will be worth having sooner rather than later.

 

 

For better advice you may consider posting up more information so we can see some sort of "history" to this. As without the details it will be almost impossible to give any sort of advice to you.

[Lapsed Workaholic]

As I understand it from what you have said so far your predicament is thus:

1. The benefits in question were paid by the Council and it is the Council who are now saying that your partner was not entitled to that benefit and are asking for redress, or for the alleged overpayment to be repaid?

2. You have asked the Council to reconsider their decision and they responded negatively to that request and have told you that they are sticking to their decision that your partner was overpaid?

3. Your next move was to seek leave to appeal to a Tribunal. Are you saying here that you sought leave to appeal in a letter to the Council?

A Tribunal Appeal has to be sent to the Tribunal Service, not to the body whose decision you are appealing against, in this case the Council. Nor would the Council help you to forward your request for an appeal before a Tribunal to a Tribunal. By doing so they would technically be requesting a Tribunal Appeal against their own decision.

As for your solicitor; has he given any opinion on what he reckons your chances are on what you've told him of your case so far? You have given no clue as to how sure you or he is of your chances.

Whoever is paying him would have to pay for the time it took him to wade through the bundle of documents that you want him to read through or look at. Since there is at present no platform or place for him to represent you on or at then he is doing you, or whoever is footing the bill for his time, a favour by not adding to the costs at this time. In my opinion what you have there is an honest solicitor who is not out to get as much as he can out of you, I'd stick to him like glue.

Forget SAR for the moment. You already have your copy of the big folder containing the evidence that the Council relies on to uphold their decision. Add to that the fact that when you make your appeal to the Tribunal, and it has been accepted, you will get all the information you need for nothing.

[mikeymack2002]

Forget SAR for the moment. You already have your copy of the big folder containing the evidence that the Council relies on to uphold their decision. Add to that the fact that when you make your appeal to the Tribunal, and it has been accepted, you will get all the information you need for nothing.

 

 

They will not give you the entire case file just the parts that show the issue. So to have a full picture you need all the information.....

 

 

No disrespect intended

[Lapsed Workaholic]

Soccerkid has not responded as yet to requests for further details and clarification of his predicament so we can only surmise.

As for making a SAR request. I merely suggest that it should not be the first priority. As you rightly pointed out yourself a response for SAR can cost £10 and take up to 40 days. It will be in the Council's interest to take up the full 40, more if they can make an excuse to stretch it.

A probable reason why this would be in the Council's interest would be that the appellant would have to send off his appeal for a Tribunal Hearing within a month of receiving the Council's response to his request for a reconsideration. If he waits for his SAR response his appeal time will have expired. It would be too late to appeal. Not only his £10 down the drain but possibly his benefit as well.

The other point to bear in mind at a Tribunal Hearing is that only such information as is relevant to the case is applicable as evidence and the Council is obliged by law to provide the Tribunal Service and the appellant with all the relevant documentation and a list of the laws that they rely on to support their decisions.

When the appellant gets his copy of all the Council's submitted documentation he will have plenty of time to decide if further information is necessary and he will be given plenty of time to get such information should he require it.

I read nothing in the advice that you offer that could be in the least bit regarded as intentionally disrespectful. The point I am trying to make is that a SAR request may be necessary but it can wait. Appealing for a Tribunal Hearing can't.

[mikeymack2002]

Surmising here is if an error has occurred by the Council talks could remedy this, I am hoping that having a fuller picture will allow better advice to be given, so I will wait until the OP responds next with information.

 

 

As far as the SAR goes it could help now, so the Op can at least see where/how this debt occurred that's all.

 

 

It could be worth asking the OP if the LA has sorted out the overpayment and the debt is not growing in value and the correct level is now being paid to the OP/partner, they can still proceed with the Tribunal request even if a SAR is asked for.

[id6052]

A Tribunal Appeal has to be sent to the Tribunal Service, not to the body whose decision you are appealing against, in this case the Council. Nor would the Council help you to forward your request for an appeal before a Tribunal to a Tribunal. By doing so they would technically be requesting a Tribunal Appeal against their own decision.

 

Appeals in relation to HB are made directly to the Council not to HMCTS.

 

The Council is then responsible for submitting the papers to HMCTS.

[Lapsed Workaholic]

Appeals in relation to HB are made directly to the Council not to HMCTS.

 

The Council is then responsible for submitting the papers to HMCTS.

Quite right ID. Each Council will have its own appeals procedure that it is obliged by law to follow. My use of the word 'Tribunal' was misleading. Obviously anyone proposing to take on their Council should familiarise themselves with the procedures that their own local Council has in place and the terms they use to describe the various tiers in their procedures.

The tenant appealing against the Council's initial decision still has to appeal to the next level up in the procedure in person. It is not done automatically. The next level up is independent of the level at which the original decision was made.

By the way a quick check of my local Council reveals that they only allow 21 days to appeal. So, even less time to hang about.

Thanks again ID for the clarification.

[Shoelover]

To answer the question re burdens of proof . If it's criminal its beyond all reasonable doubt, civil & for benefit decisions it's on the balance of probability.

 

O/p - you mention prosecution. Have you been interviewed about an alleged offence in relation to this?

[id6052]

Lapsed workaholic

 

the appeal rules for HB are the same for all Councils and are set down in law

 

if a person appeals a HB decision - it has to go forward to a HMCTS tribunal unless the Council allows the appeal (in full or in part) by revising the challenged decision to the appellant's advantage

[Soccerkid66]

I certainly can. I was a landlord from 2001 until 2011 to a lady who had 2 children and unfortunately suffers with mental health issues. She has been awarded disability benefit indefinitely and lived in my property and caused no issues or problems. The tenancy agreement did not include a large garage at the bottom of the garden and I used it from 2003 onwards as an office where I ran my small business from. My residency was with my elderly parents who live some 20 miles from the house and on some occasions I stayed in my office which contained a sofa bed, Fridge, Microwave, etcc. I Helped the tenant as much as possible as I genuinely felt sorry for her as her son was basically an ******* who worked but refuse to help his mother and would not pay towards anything etc. She asked him to leave and he moved in with his grandmother but begged to come back. He came back and she informed the Council who told her that should would receive reduced council tax benefits and basically said he should contribute. He gamble most of his money so my tenant had to find the money herself. Stupidly on odd occasions after hearing her sob stories and knowing what he was like I agreed to help her out and occasionally would let her off 50 100 and sometimes 200 of the rent she gave me. She repaid me by cooking for me occasionally and cleaning the office. No money was given to me to her for this ever. The police came into the house one morning when I was actually using the toilet and arrested us both and we were interviewed where our stories matched and we have been accused of being a couple from the outset although I had viewed the house with my partner at the time which can be verified by the previous owner. DWP believe the explanation however they feel we were a couple from when I started helping which was 2011.Local authority don't believe us even though DWP and want repayment from 2001.We lodged an appeal last August and the local authority have sat on the paperwork since until Feb 2015 without even acknowledgement of the appeal. We have a new solicitor as the old one was completely useless and in a letter from the local authority they state that they feel and I quote `In all probability ` We were a couple from the outset, which is nonsense. No information from DWP or LA with any indication of Criminal proceedings. This all started back in May 2013.I now live in the house in a separate bedrooms and Ex tenant is getting help from her mother and son as I have threatened to find another tenant. She still suffers from some serious mental issues and this has made it significantly worse. Still feel for her and am trying to help he.

[Soccerkid66]

It is for a considerable amount of Money and it looks to me like they have enough evidence to seek overpayment but from their letter I don't think they have enough to seek a criminal conviction however as it is nearly 100,000 I would guess it will mean crown court for her.

[Soccerkid66]

Again apologise for ignoring response and very grateful for any advice.

[Shoelover]

Over 100k needs a solicitor experienced in these matters, as soon as you can get one.

Sounds to me as if the council don't think she had a rent liability.