Jump to content


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 2274 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

Hello,

 

I've been sent a PCN for being stopped in a yellow box junction.

 

Can someone tell me whether the yellow box junction shown in the attached image is legal?

 

My understanding is that it must touch all four kerbs. It doesn't touch the top right kerb, but that is a median, so maybe it doesn't count?

 

Thank you,

Jonathan

Edited by Jonathan Campbell
Link to post
Share on other sites

Strictly it doesn't comply.

The left corner should interrupt the red line and reach the kerb, unless an exemption has been granted.

However most adjudicators will deem this as 'minor'.

Post more details and lets try to get out of this shambolic money making system.

Bear in mind that the offence is not 'stopping' in the junction box, but 'entering' it when exit is not clear.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bear in mind that the offence is not 'stopping' in the junction box, but 'entering' it when exit is not clear.

 

 

No it isn't its, 'entering a box junction and stopping due to the presence of a stationary vehicle', its perfectly legal to enter if the exit is not clear and thousands of people do so every week.

Link to post
Share on other sites
No it isn't its, 'entering a box junction and stopping due to the presence of a stationary vehicle', its perfectly legal to enter if the exit is not clear and thousands of people do so every week.

 

No, this is not correct, see the following:

 

174

 

Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see ‘Road markings’). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.

 

And this is the link to a gov.uk website, so I assume is legitimate (see point 174):

 

https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-junctions-170-to-183

 

 

Unfortunately this is what the Highway Code says.

The fact that drivers do this every day is irrelevant.

Link to post
Share on other sites
No, this is not correct, see the following:

 

174

 

Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see ‘Road markings’). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.

 

And this is the link to a gov.uk website, so I assume is legitimate (see point 174):

 

https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-junctions-170-to-183

 

 

Unfortunately this is what the Highway Code says.

The fact that drivers do this every day is irrelevant.

 

 

thumb.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites
No, this is not correct, see the following:

 

174

 

Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see ‘Road markings’). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.

 

And this is the link to a gov.uk website, so I assume is legitimate (see point 174):

 

https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-junctions-170-to-183

 

 

Unfortunately this is what the Highway Code says.

The fact that drivers do this every day is irrelevant.

 

No, you're wrong and G&M is right. The contravention only occurs if you enter and stop. There may well be several cars in front of you, but as long as the line keeps moving and you clear the box, there is no contravention.

 

It may be prudent to follow the Highway Code's advice "You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear", in order not to get caught out, but the actual contravention doesn't occur until you stop within the box.

Link to post
Share on other sites
No, you're wrong and G&M is right. The contravention only occurs if you enter and stop. There may well be several cars in front of you, but as long as the line keeps moving and you clear the box, there is no contravention.

 

It may be prudent to follow the Highway Code's advice "You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear", in order not to get caught out, but the actual contravention doesn't occur until you stop within the box.

 

The highway code speaks for itself.

There's no mentioning of non stopping, just entering while there's no clear exit.

Unfortunately this is not negotiable.

A few appeals have been allowed when CCTV footage showed another car cutting in and blocking the exit.

But only when the alleged offender entered the box with clear exit which was then suddenly and unexpectedly blocked.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Interpretation of Part II of Schedule

6. In this Part of this Schedule -

 

(a) "box junction" means the area of carriageway marked with yellow cross-hatching at a junction between two or more roads on which there has been placed the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044; and

 

(b) a reference (however expressed) to a vehicle which is stationary or stops within a box junction includes a vehicle which is stationary whilst part of it is within the box junction.

 

Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044

7. - (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

 

(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person -

 

(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and

 

(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

 

Prohibition conveyed when markings are placed in conjunction with signs in diagrams 615 and 811

8. When the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044 is placed in conjunction with the signs shown in diagrams 615 and 811 on an area of carriageway which is less than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point, the road marking shall convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction.If you get a Penalty Charge Notice for stopping in a box junction it will be issued by post under The London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003.

You should note that the Highway Code offers sensible advice about not entering the box junction if your exit is not clear but it is not mandatory and there is no penalty if you fail to follow this recommendation (but that failure could be used against you if there was an accident). The critical issue for the issuing of a ticket is if you entered the box junction and stopped in it due to the presence of stationary vehicles. That is the test.

 

 

"However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right".

Edited by Conniff
Link to post
Share on other sites

This debate has been had more than once, and I for one struggle to comprehend the specifics of the offence. But, nothwithstanding, the OP only enquired as to whether the road markings were legit - so the thread is off course.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry conniff, but in the highway code the words "must not" mean that it is an offence, so it's not just advice.

 

Going back to the getaway for the op, it is crucial to have CCTV footage in these cases.

Still pictures do not prove anything.

If a still picture is produced in evidence and no footage is available, even if the offender car is in the box and the exit is blocked, any excuse could be found, including the cheeky one that the car was hit from behind and pushed in the box.

Unfortunately by now all LAs know this and produce footage rather than still pictures, or at least they preserve the footage in case of appeal.

We need to know mire from the op to advise any further.

But definitely the offence is committed when the car enters the box (not turning right) without clear exit.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry conniff, but in the highway code the words "must not" mean that it is an offence, so it's not just advice.

 

But definitely the offence is committed when the car enters the box (not turning right) without clear exit.

 

Constantly repeating the same rubbish doesn't make you right.

However if you are so certain, perhaps you can post just one instance of a prosecution/contravention which is solely for entering a YBJ. It's always for entering and stopping. Instead of relying on the Highway Code, try reading the actual legislation.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Constantly repeating the same rubbish doesn't make you right.

However if you are so certain, perhaps you can post just one instance of a prosecution/contravention which is solely for entering a YBJ. It's always for entering and stopping. Instead of relying on the Highway Code, try reading the actual legislation.

 

Why don't you post a link to the relevant legislation then, I did while you are relying on hearsay and urban myth

Link to post
Share on other sites
Why don't you post a link to the relevant legislation then, I did while you are relying on hearsay and urban myth

Post#10:

7. - (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

 

Still waiting for example of entering only.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Post#10:

7. - (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

 

Still waiting for example of entering only.

 

You proved my point.

Link to post
Share on other sites
You proved my point.

 

 

 

What, the point that you were wrong? It is not an offence to enter when the exit is not clear, the offence is entering and then stopping due to a stationary vehicle. The exit could even be clear when you enter and you could still get a penalty if you subsequently stop for a stationary vehicle. You could also enter when the exit is blocked and still not be guilty of an offence, if for example the lights ahead are changing and you correctly judge the stationary traffic blocking your exit will move by the time you cross the box. For arguments sake lets say I'm not paying attention enter the box while the exit is blocked and reach the far side before realising that's the case and then reverse back out the box.......is that an offence?

Link to post
Share on other sites

ok this is interesting.

I guess the way i view it is if we take a snapshot of the box and the surrounds it may go somethign like this.

 

If your car is in anyway inside the box and there is nowhere clear at that moment for you to exit then in theory you would have to stop within it, thus causing a vehicle to enter the box where it has to stop due to stationry vehicles

 

Interesting though, that if there was space behind you and it was nto a one way street if you could use that as a defense (eg reverse back out)

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 

 

 

 

The SabreSheep, All information is offered on good faith and based on mine and others experiences. I am not a qualified legal professional and you should always seek legal advice if you are unsure of your position.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The only reason the LA don't usually issue pcn for entering the box when the exit is blocked but the vehicle doesn't stop because traffic moved, is because it would seem unreasonable to prosecute someone who has not caused any obstruction to the traffic.

However there's been (and still are)plenty of cases where, especially TfL have issued pcn using still pictures as evidence, showing the offending vehicle entering the box and the exit blocked by other vehicles.

Have a look at specialised websites.

If it makes you feel happy I can say that I'm wrong and suggest to all drivers to enter the junction box if they think they can slowly roll to the other side without stopping the wheels when the exit is blocked but could become clear.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I recently appealed against a PCN served for charge code 31, entering and stopping in a box junction, I am currently waiting for the appeal to be answered, this is my appeal:

Procedural impropriety

1. The Highway Code clearly states that you must not enter a Yellow Box Junction unless your exit is clear or if you are turning right but need to wait in the box because of oncoming, moving traffic. This PCN is invalid is because the vehicle entered the box junction and took the right hand lane as it was turning right into xxxx Road which is all part of the same one way junction at xxxx Road and xxxxx Lane.

2. The evidence provided does not show the time the vehicle entered the box junction or leaves it, therefore the principle of de minimis applies; specifically that the vehicle may have been stationery for a few seconds only before moving off.

3. The box junction is not compliant for the following three reasons:

a) A box junction must meet the kerb on all 4 corners but this one is marked at a T junction and is not marked at all on the westbound carriageway.

b) This box junction extends along the road beyond the junction for a few feet on the eastbound carriageway when it should end at the corner of the junction.

c) There are double yellow lines around the box junction so it is not correctly marked and therefore unenforceable.

4. If video evidence is only available by visiting London Borough of xxxx offices during working hours and not made available by email or other remote access then the evidence is deemed to be of restricted access only and by those terms the appellant cannot make an informed appeal, therefore this is an unfair disadvantage imposed by London Borough of xxx .

Other grounds

1. The alleged offence took place during heavy rush hour traffic (timed at 18:10 on weekday in the still photos) and the vehicle on the right of xxxxx indicated that the driver should go by flashing their lights and giving way. When the driver of xxxxxx looked left before entering the box junction the traffic was seen to be moving, unfortunately as vehicle xxx entered the box junction a vehicle in the traffic queue ahead stopped whilst turning right into xxx Road (it may have stalled) and traffic stopped. There is no way the driver could have predicted that.

2. Had the driver not accepted the give way from the vehicle to the right the traffic queue would just continue building up in xxx Lane, also it is likely that any vehicle would never be able to exit xxx Lane onto xxx Road during rush hour without pausing in the box junction at some point, it is a busy junction and poorly designed, it really needs traffic light control. Any driver is stuck with a difficult decision to make, risk the box junction infringement or the wrath of other drivers queuing behind you honking and shouting at you to pull out.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Careful with the head flashing thing, it is not a recognised signal other than "I am Here"

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 

 

 

 

The SabreSheep, All information is offered on good faith and based on mine and others experiences. I am not a qualified legal professional and you should always seek legal advice if you are unsure of your position.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I recently appealed against a PCN served for charge code 31, entering and stopping in a box junction, I am currently waiting for the appeal to be answered, this is my appeal:

Procedural impropriety

1. The Highway Code clearly states that you must not enter a Yellow Box Junction unless your exit is clear or if you are turning right but need to wait in the box because of oncoming, moving traffic. This PCN is invalid is because the vehicle entered the box junction and took the right hand lane as it was turning right into xxxx Road which is all part of the same one way junction at xxxx Road and xxxxx Lane.

2. The evidence provided does not show the time the vehicle entered the box junction or leaves it, therefore the principle of de minimis applies; specifically that the vehicle may have been stationery for a few seconds only before moving off.

3. The box junction is not compliant for the following three reasons:

a) A box junction must meet the kerb on all 4 corners but this one is marked at a T junction and is not marked at all on the westbound carriageway.

b) This box junction extends along the road beyond the junction for a few feet on the eastbound carriageway when it should end at the corner of the junction.

c) There are double yellow lines around the box junction so it is not correctly marked and therefore unenforceable.

4. If video evidence is only available by visiting London Borough of xxxx offices during working hours and not made available by email or other remote access then the evidence is deemed to be of restricted access only and by those terms the appellant cannot make an informed appeal, therefore this is an unfair disadvantage imposed by London Borough of xxx .

Other grounds

1. The alleged offence took place during heavy rush hour traffic (timed at 18:10 on weekday in the still photos) and the vehicle on the right of xxxxx indicated that the driver should go by flashing their lights and giving way. When the driver of xxxxxx looked left before entering the box junction the traffic was seen to be moving, unfortunately as vehicle xxx entered the box junction a vehicle in the traffic queue ahead stopped whilst turning right into xxx Road (it may have stalled) and traffic stopped. There is no way the driver could have predicted that.

2. Had the driver not accepted the give way from the vehicle to the right the traffic queue would just continue building up in xxx Lane, also it is likely that any vehicle would never be able to exit xxx Lane onto xxx Road during rush hour without pausing in the box junction at some point, it is a busy junction and poorly designed, it really needs traffic light control. Any driver is stuck with a difficult decision to make, risk the box junction infringement or the wrath of other drivers queuing behind you honking and shouting at you to pull out.

 

You could have stopped at your first point: As you were turning right, you were allowed to enter the box and stop in it for the purpose of letting through incoming traffic.

All other points are good and add more weight to the appeal.

I bet it's Hounslow council.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If it makes you feel happy I can say that I'm wrong and suggest to all drivers to enter the junction box if they think they can slowly roll to the other side without stopping the wheels when the exit is blocked but could become clear.

 

 

Yes they can roll across the junction without the fear of a penalty as no offence has been committed. The offence is created by a sequence of events, a) motorist enters junction and then b) stops due to other stopped vehicles.

 

 

If you do not stop.....no offence

If you stop for other reason eg to answer phone or check map.......no offence

If you do not cause the vehicle to enter eg you get shunted in during a crash........no offence

If you enter and stop legally to unload for example and then when you leave you are stopped by a stationary vehicle........no offence

Even if you enter and stop with the exit blocked for another reason other than you cannot proceed there is no offence, for example if you stop to pick up a passenger and can demonstrate that was why you stopped and not due to the cars blocking your exit theres no offence.

 

 

http://keycases.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/docs/SKMBT_C454e14031218240.pdf

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...