Demotion - not part of a disciplinary

[Saffronflowers]

Hi there

 

 

My husband was informed yesterday that it is to be demoted from a position as a supervisor that he has held for 7 years, due to restructuring of the department and that they will be employing a manager. He was told not to apply for this "new" position as he would not be considered. The new position has an increased work load. His salary will stay the same but his car "band" will decrease though this is part of his remuneration package.

 

 

When he asked - " What if I decide not to take this job?" the reply was "You could always go for redundancy, which we will fight in court as the job offered is of a similar role."

 

 

It has also been discussed within meeting prior to Friday and my husband had been informed that something was happening by a collegue, not his manager or HR.

 

 

What are his rights he has been employed by them for over 23 years, this demotion through no fault of his or the standard of work will be acutely embarrassing and stressful.

 

 

Thank you in advance

 

 

SFx

[ericsbrother]

You say demotion but then add that the salary hasnt changed. Does the tax liability for the new car band change? If not then it isnt really a demotion in any real sense. If he went for redundancy they will say that a job with a similar role has been offered and it is an organisational change rather than redundancy. Anyone can have a new manager imposed upon them and junior staff removed if the pay isnt changed. If the job is part of a graded scheme then the individual post becomes "ring fenced" until the rest of the people catch up.

[Emmzzi]

I think you're dealing with hurt feelings here rather than anything you can take legal action over. What does his contract say about the car? Does he have an actual car and he needs to trade down, or is it cash?

[waynemyles04]

Hi there. Sorry to hear about your situation. I ended up in a similar circumstance a few years ago. I was moved into higher level and more demanding role without any prior consolation and my wage remained the same. This resulted in me leaving the job because of pressure and threats of disciplinary. What I didn't know at the time was that this could have fallen into the category of 'constructive dismissal'. This usually relates to a demotion. The issue with being informed by a work colleague before HR could be classed as breach of confidentiality. If I was in your situation I would contact my local CAB and find out as much as you can about 'constructive dismissal' on the web or search on gov.uk. I hope this helps and I wish I had this information available to to me six years ago.

[SparklesJD]

Hi SF,

 

Based on your account, I think your husband is being treated a bit shabbily on the face of it.

 

1. Was Friday a formal meeting, or was that when he heard it from a colleague?

2. Has he had anything in writing yet?

3. If yes, is there any right of appeal or alternatives suggested in the meeting or letter?

4. What notice has he received that this will be happening? I.e. when does it take effect?

 

I would suggest to anyone in a situation like this that they make notes of everything, not War and Peace, but i. time/date ii. who was there? iii. where was this? i.e. in a private setting, shopfloor, etc. iv. what was said. Be factual and succinct. If you can't remember exact words, what was the overall message? Do this following every conversation as quickly as you can before memory fades. If notes are made in a meeting, make sure you get copies and check that you agree with them.

 

If there is a redundancy situation, it sounds possible that they're trying to avoid their responsibilities to either follow a process or make a payment.

 

Could they be acting in good faith keeping his money as is, but taking responsibility away? Has there ever been any suggestion that he can't cope, poor performance, etc.?

 

Why don't they want to offer him the new role? Is it earmarked for someone else? Someone else at risk? In which case they might have a case to give it to them if they're more senior or on (ordinary) maternity leave, for example.

 

There's quite a lot going on here and I think that he would benefit from taking some advice from someone like a TU legal expert (if he's in one); the CAB or ACAS. I would imagine that an ET would take a very dim view of someone with such long service being treated like this, however, going to ET is a big and expensive step and you would need proper advice first.

 

'Constructive dismissal' is resignation in direct response to action by the employer that breaks the relationship of trust and confidence between you and your employer. It can be a number of little things culminating in a 'final straw' or a one-off resulting in the break-down of the relationship. It's basically saying 'you gave me no choice but to resign'. Be aware that if it's SO bad that you had to resign, the longer you leave it to do so, the harder it is to make the argument that the break was the employer's fault.

 

(I am a corporate poster, but not in a HR role, I just have an interest / past experience. I offer my opinion in good faith, usual stuff about getting advice applies).

[Emmzzi]

I would research constructive dismissal cases and how often they are won, before going down the route suggested above. If you have an abiity to cope with no income for a while, and think hubby will pick up something quickly, and have the mental robustness to last the several months dealing with dirty lawyers tricks on the way to ET, by all means he can resign and pursue it for the tiny chance he will succeed.

 

In other circumstances I would be pragmatic and reflect that while it is not fair, it is most likely legal, due to the preservation of salary; and helping him get over it quickly will serve his mental health and performance better than the alternative.

[billathome65]

Can I put my two pennies in here?

 

As you have said the company is restructuring and as such the position your OH currently holds is being made redundant, however the company have offered your OH a decreesed position but keeping his current pay band. If the car band side remains simmilar then effectively the company have done all they can at the moment to ensure your OH is not to adversly affected.

 

What I would be asking is are any bonus / wage increases going to be in line with his current package or will they decrees if so are any elements of his current package protected for a period allowing him over time to fall into line with others in a similar role?

 

Also, as the position is becoming redundant should your OH refuse the new package they could terminate his current contract and offer the new package then it would be down to your OH if he wished to accept or walk away.

 

At our place there is a restructure in process at the moment, meaning most of the team leader and some manager posts are being made redundant the company could have terminated their employment but instead after talks with the union have offered a step down whilst offering compensation as the current package was exempt from a policy of protective pay.

 

All in all, if your OH is not financially being affected then he is pulling in a half decent deal. What I would be more concerned of is why he has been told not to apply for the management role?

 

Just my thoughts

 

Bill

[Saffronflowers]

Sparkles JD - he was asked to have a meeting with his boss on Thursday whilst he was out on business, there was no indication of the nature or that it was more than an informal discussion about the department.

 

 

He has received no paperwork or time scales.

 

 

Their attitude is that it is a fait a compli, they were going to post the new job advert Friday before he had a chance to tell his team who are not due into the office on Monday.

 

 

This has come out of the blue, he has managed the dept for 7 years, there has been no indication from either the stakeholders he deals with nor from his superiors that there has/have been any issues witht he dept or its running.

 

 

No time scales have been put in place, and they seem not to try and seek his agreement but force it upom him.

 

 

The new job description has a significant increase in workload. There are some very important training taking place in the next few weeks that up and till Friday would have been in his remit, though now due to this change is it still his responsibility.

 

 

I think he feels that they are setting him up to fail, so that they can dismiss him and avoid any costs that would incur after 24 years of service etc.

 

 

Bill - the company is not restructuring as such, just this single dept, my OH is the single person that is effected by this change. I think that the best way forward is to discuss this with ACAS, and gain a firm idea of what is the correct way of dealing with this, if as I fear they may try to dismiss him as the new job is almost untenable.

 

 

Thank you all for your help

 

 

SFx

[Emmzzi]

An alternative would be your trade union, or legal cover through your home insurance.

 

ACAS are a mediation organisation who exist to resolve complaints these days. Their contact centre is not staffed by experts; the advice they give is sometimes wrong; nor do I regard them as championing "the working man."