Bristol and Wessex Water & Charging order, they say they want paying now..

[AndyOrch]

There is no threshold on charging orders ...there is a threshold on Order for Sale pertaining to the Charging Order of £1000 as per all your links provided.

Not an opinion just fact...you need to re read what you have posted.

 

So that means you can have a CCJ for £600 and they could secure it with a Charging Order but they cant get a Order for sale because its below £1000

[SuperVillain]

Hold up, bankruptcy and charging orders are two different things, this is where the confusion is arising.

 

A charging order is a method of enforcing a CCJ.

A charging order can be followed by an order for sale.

The order for sale used to have no lower threshold - a charge of any value could potentially force a sale.

Now the threshold is a £1,000.00 minimum charge.

Forcing the sale of a property doesn't mean you're bankrupt.

 

Bankruptcy is not a method of enforcement per say.

It's effectively a court order stating that you cannot pay your debts as they fall due and imposing consequences on you as a result of that

- one of which being forcing realisation of your assets to pay a dividend to all your creditors.

 

But to start a bankruptcy petition a creditor has to have a debt of at least £750.00.

This is the bankruptcy threshold.

 

And another thing is that the Court won't arbitrarily force a sale because a charge holder applies for an order.

 

There is a hearing where you can put forward arguments for your house not to be sold.

 

I'm not 100% sure but I imagine one of those arguments would be proportionality i.e. is is reasonable for a £250k house to be sold to pay a £2k debt,

and are there other ways the debt could be paid?

 

These are arguments the Judge would consider, along with the obvious family home/child welfare arguments, before ordering any sale

 

And finally as with anything, the Creditor has to weigh up the costs and whether it is worth incurring those.

 

Charging orders

- The court fee for the application is £100.00 and most creditors will have a solicitor doing it for them, who's costs are not necessarily added to the debt.

 

Many creditors, especially companies instructing solicitors, will instruct counsel to attend both the interim and final charging order hearings

- this costs money

- you're probably looking at around £750.00 costs straight off the bat.

 

Then if they want an order for sale,

again there will be application fees (£80.00 I think) with associated solicitors and counsel's fees which again aren't all recoverable.

Now you're probably running close to £1,500.00 and that's without any guarantee that a sale will actually be granted...

 

And the same with Bankruptcy while we're at it lol.

Court fee of £220.00 plus official receivers deposit of £750 i think

- then there's the cost of actually drafting the petition and advertising it, personally serving it.

That's about £1,200 straight away.

 

Then there's the cost of the hearing

- again a creditor will most likely instruct counsel so it's going into the realms of £1,800-£2,000...

and for what

- you've no guarantee of a recovery and any recovery you do make will be shared with other creditors.

No one is likely to do it for £1,000, let alone the lower threshold of £750.

 

However, in order to be made bankrupt your debts must be greater than your assets.

 

So if you have a charge order on your house for £1000 and you own your house outright

you will loose your house even though the debt is far smaller than your assets.

 

That first line isn't accurate.

 

Bankruptcy isn't about your assets it's about your ability to pay your debts. Having a £200k house is not the same as having £200k in the bank.

 

Having a charge on your house is completely different to bankruptcy. The creditor can apply to force a sale of your house but it doesn't necessarily mean it will be granted by a Judge. As I said above:

 

A) You have the opportunity to argue your reasons for the house not to be sold at the hearing

B) The creditor will have to weigh up the cost of applying for this order vs the likelihood of a sale being granted.

[AndyOrch]

Absolutley correct SV thank you for confirming...thought I was going mad:???:

 

I have merged all the posters previous threads on the same point...hopefully he will now understand the difference.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[chiefmegawatty]

That first line isn't accurate.

 

Bankruptcy isn't about your assets it's about your ability to pay your debts. Having a £200k house is not the same as having £200k in the bank.

 

Having a charge on your house is completely different to bankruptcy. The creditor can apply to force a sale of your house but it doesn't necessarily mean it will be granted by a Judge. As I said above:

 

A) You have the opportunity to argue your reasons for the house not to be sold at the hearing

B) The creditor will have to weigh up the cost of applying for this order vs the likelihood of a sale being granted.

 

Sorry but I have been misled regarding the definition of bankruptcy.

 

I found the definition in the second paragraph on this web page:

http://www.stepchange.org/Debtinformationandadvice/Debtsolutions/Bankruptcy/Whatisbankruptcy.aspx

 

I therefore assume that the stepchange definition of bankrupcy is incorrect.

 

This being the case I assume a person could be bankrupt and extremely rich simultaneously.

 

There is no threshold on Charging Orders...there is a threshold on Orders for forced sale from the charging order of £1000.

 

Yes but you must have a CCJ for £1000 before a creditor can apply for a charge order.

 

Therefore that sets the debt level for a charge order at £1000.

[SuperVillain]

Sorry but I have been misled regarding the definition of bankrupcy.

I found the definition in the second paragraph on this web page: http://www.stepchange.org/Debtinformationandadvice/Debtsolutions/Bankruptcy/Whatisbankruptcy.aspx

 

I therefore assume that the stepchange definition of bankrupcy is incorrect.

This being the case I assume a person could be bankrupt and extremely rich simultaneously.

 

I think you're thinking of bankruptcy in the wrong way.

 

It's not a state of existence... You aren't just bankrupt based on an arbitrary set of conditions being satisfied.

 

Bankruptcy is a process as stated on that website you linked. It's up to the court to declare someone bankrupt following a petition, either by the person wanting to be declared bankrupt or one of their creditors.

 

If one can demonstrate an inability to pay their debts as they fall due the court can declare them bankrupt.

 

A person who is asset rich but cash poor is unlikely to be declared bankrupt as the sensible thing to do would be to dispose of some assets to create cash to pay the debts. Remember bankruptcy brings with it restrictions.

[AndyOrch]

Yes but you must have a CCJ for £1000 before a creditor can apply for a charge order.

Therefore that sets the debt level for a charge order at £1000.

 

Incorrect.... The £1000 threshold is for an Order to Force Sale to execute the Charging Order...if the Charging Order is securing a debt of less than 1K then the judgement creditor cannot Force sale your property.

[chiefmegawatty]

I think you're thinking of bankruptcy in the wrong way.

 

It's not a state of existence... You aren't just bankrupt based on an arbitrary set of conditions being satisfied.

 

Bankruptcy is a process as stated on that website you linked. It's up to the court to declare someone bankrupt following a petition, either by the person wanting to be declared bankrupt or one of their creditors.

 

If one can demonstrate an inability to pay their debts as they fall due the court can declare them bankrupt.

 

A person who is asset rich but cash poor is unlikely to be declared bankrupt as the sensible thing to do would be to dispose of some assets to create cash to pay the debts. Remember bankruptcy brings with it restrictions.

 

I know a woman who lives fairly near here who has been made bankrupt.

 

She told me that she can only borrow money up to £500 due to her bankrupcy status.

 

I have been told that due to my CCJ and a charge order on my house that I can't borrow any money at all.

I can't even use the equity in my house to secure a loan.

 

I therefore assume that I would be better off bankrupt and therefore loan worthy.

 

I also therefore assume that due to the charge order that the equity in my house is worth nothing.

Thirty years work all down the drain. So a £1000 debt that ends up with a charge order makes your house worth nothing.

[mjt2013]

I think it will probably depend on what lenders you and your friend are talking to. There are some which specialise in lending to bankrupts/people with poor credit whereas the vast majority won't. Having a CCJ and a charge doesn't stop you from getting credit per se but the lending criteria will be much stricter as a result.

[SuperVillain]

I know a woman who lives fairly near here who has been made bankrupt. She told me that she can only borrow money up to £500 due to her bankrupcy status.

I have been told that due to my CCJ and a charge order on my house that I can't borrow any money at all. I can't even use the equity in my house to secure a loan.I therefore assume that I would be better off bankrupt and therefore loan worthy. I also therefore assume that due to the charge order that the equity in my house is worth nothing.

Thirty years work all down the drain. So a £1000 debt that ends up with a charge order makes your house worth nothing.

 

Woah Woah think about what you're saying. Better off bankrupt??

That will force the sale of your house and there will be little you could do to fight it.

Plus if you owe anyone else money they can get a share of those proceeds too.

 

And as you pointed out there are restrictions that come with bankruptcy.

These stay with you for at least a year and its a criminal offence to break these restrictions.

Bankruptcy in my view is very much a last resort option.

 

The whole point is that your house isn't worth nothing, that's why there's a charge on it.

 

It's the CCJ that's preventing you from borrowing money more than the charge.

 

You're house is still worth £200k or whatever, it's that any sale of the house must pay the charge from its proceeds.

 

Most creditors just wait till a house is sold.

But you can fight an order for sale if the company decides to go down that route.

I don't think it would be cost effective for them given the amount of the charge,

but like I said its not an arbitrary thing that a sale will happen

- a Judge will look at all the circumstances in the case.

 

Can you not make any instalment payments to reduce the debt? Even if it's as little as £5 or £10 a month.

[Ganymede]

I know a woman who lives fairly near here who has been made bankrupt. She told me that she can only borrow money up to £500 due to her bankrupcy status.

I have been told that due to my CCJ and a charge order on my house that I can't borrow any money at all. I can't even use the equity in my house to secure a loan.I therefore assume that I would be better off bankrupt and therefore loan worthy. I also therefore assume that due to the charge order that the equity in my house is worth nothing.

Thirty years work all down the drain. So a £1000 debt that ends up with a charge order makes your house worth nothing.

 

I'm sorry but that is all nonsense.

If you have a small CO of a couple of grand but £200k equity then you can still release that equity in the normal way. You'll just need to pay off the CO.

 

The only reason a CCJ stops you borrowing is because of the higher risk

but you will be able to find loans with a crazy high interest rate if you want.

There is NO legal restriction on borrowing with a CCJ unlike bankruptcy,

you just need to find someone stupid enough to lend to you.

 

Also just to correct something else,

 

you are able to get a CO for less than a grand but it cannot be enforced by way of OFS unless it is over a grand.

[sequenci]

Sorry but I have been misled regarding the definition of bankrupcy.

I found the definition in the second paragraph on this web page: http://www.stepchange.org/Debtinformationandadvice/Debtsolutions/Bankruptcy/Whatisbankruptcy.aspx

 

I therefore assume that the stepchange definition of bankrupcy is incorrect.

This being the case I assume a person could be bankrupt and extremely rich simultaneously.

 

It's only part of the story, and rather than consider a definition of 'bankruptcy' it's better to consider the point at which someone might be 'insolvent. There are two points to consider:

 

- They are unable to pay their debts and liabilities as they fall due; and

- The value of their assets is lower than the value of their liabilities.

 

Now, it's important to bear in mind that someone can be regarded as insolvent even if the amount of equity they have in their property is more than their debt level. As such I absolutely agree with your assumption.

 

What I've written is likely to appear a little convoluted, and it is. The problem is, is that there are different tests as to when someone is regarded as 'insolvent' depending on where you look within the Insolvency Act. Those two points I mentioned are used when someone is being investigated into whether or not they have arranged any transactions at undervalue whereas when someone is simply looking to petition for their bankruptcy the key test is whether or not they can pay their debts on time, or not.

 

Hope this helps.

[chiefmegawatty]

Thanks Sequenci for your superb and clear explanation. Now I understand.

 

My charge order clearly states that I cannot use the equity in my house as security against any loan.

 

Therefore the charge order implies that I have no equity until the charge order is paid off.

 

My house is owned outright and solely in my name. I have no other debts or loans.

 

Regarding paying off the charge order, my situation is complicated.

 

Thirty months ago my wife disappeared and left me with the debt that led to the charge order.

My wife is legally entitled to half the value of this house when she files for divorce.

My wife was responsible for the debt that caused the charge order to come about.

 

Now if I pay off the charge order that will result in my wife receiving more money when the house is sold.

 

Last year I had a free half hour with a solicitor who told me that because the house is solely in my name

I can legally sell it without my wife's knowledge.

 

However, the solicitor said that any solicitor acting for my wife under divorce proceedings would track me down for selling the house

to deliberately deprive my wife of her half the value and then award my wife more than 50%.

 

I therefore assume that an order for sale against my wishes would make it impossible for my wife's solicitor to accuse me of selling the house

with intent to deprive my wife of her half of the value.

 

Her solicitor would have to blame the water supplier and the county court judge who forced the sale.

 

I cannot be blamed for selling the house if the selling is forced by the court.

 

Under these complicated circumstances I don't know which is best, a forced sale or bankrupcy.

 

A CCJ screws you up for six years satisfied or not.

Bankruptcy removes CCJ's and screws you up for one year.

[chiefmegawatty]

No replies therefore I assume that bankrupcy is the best solution to my situation.

I thought so in the first place.

How can I get my water supplier to abandon the charge order and apply for bankrupcy instead?

[honeybee13]

No replies therefore I assume that bankrupcy is the best solution to my situation. I thought so in the first place. How can I get my water supplier to abandon the charge order and apply for bankrupcy instead?

 

Hello there.

 

I haven't been involved in this thread so far, but in your place, I wouldn't go for bankruptcy with all its ramifications without taking face to face professional advice.

 

In my view it would be hazardous to take such a far-reaching decision based on some views on an internet forum, however well intended the advice is. If you have a face to face interview, you can disclose all the information to enable informed advice to be given.

 

HB

[dx100uk]

why cant you just start paying the sum off?

 

I take it the water bill was from a time when you and the ex were living together in this same house the charge is against?

[Ganymede]

My charge order clearly states that I cannot use the equity in my house as security against any loan.

 

Therefore the charge order implies that I have no equity until the charge order is paid off.

 

My house is owned outright and solely in my name. I have no other debts or loans.

 

Regarding paying off the charge order, my situation is complicated.

 

Thirty months ago my wife disappeared and left me with the debt that led to the charge order.

My wife is legally entitled to half the value of this house when she files for divorce.

My wife was responsible for the debt that caused the charge order to come about.

 

Now if I pay off the charge order that will result in my wife receiving more money when the house is sold.

 

Last year I had a free half hour with a solicitor who told me that because the house is solely in my name

I can legally sell it without my wife's knowledge.

 

However, the solicitor said that any solicitor acting for my wife under divorce proceedings would track me down for selling the house

to deliberately deprive my wife of her half the value and then award my wife more than 50%.

 

I therefore assume that an order for sale against my wishes would make it impossible for my wife's solicitor to accuse me of selling the house

with intent to deprive my wife of her half of the value.

 

Her solicitor would have to blame the water supplier and the county court judge who forced the sale.

 

I cannot be blamed for selling the house if the selling is forced by the court.

 

Under these complicated circumstances I don't know which is best, a forced sale or bankrupcy.

 

A CCJ screws you up for six years satisfied or not.

Bankruptcy removes CCJ's and screws you up for one year.

 

 

 

 

How is your wife solely responsible for this debt?

[chiefmegawatty]

Hi dx.

 

 

Yes we were living together during the time this debt accumulated.

During this period my wife was the only earner and the water account was in her name only.

Unknowingly to me she wasn't paying the water and sewerage bills.

The water company then put my name on the account and slammed a CCJ on me.

 

 

I didn't know anything about the CCJ until 8 months after it was issued.

My wife was obviously intercepting my post to hide her deception.

 

 

Shortly after my wife running away I was informed that the water company were applying for a charge order against my house.

I have a letter here from Bristol & Wessex water that clearly states that I am not allowed to sell my house.

I therefore assume that my house is worth nothing as I have no equity due to the charge order.

 

 

The charge order clearly states that I am not allowed to borrow money against my house as equity.

Therefore the charge order means I have no equity.

 

 

Before the charge order I owned my house outright with no mortgage or any debts.

Now it appears that the court and the water company own my house due to a relatively small debt.

 

I am astonished that the law has now allowed a creditor with a 2% ownership of a house to have power

over the owner and reduce his equity to zero.

 

 

I think that this would still apply if a creditor only owned 1% of my property due to a charge order.

Therefore according to the law, 1% is greater than 99%. Forty years ago my dad said the law was an ass.

 

I think he has been proved right.

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

Would you mind typing up the water company letter minus any personal details please?

 

I think it would help us to advise you.

 

HB

[dx100uk]

**you can post up images/letters by this method immediately..you don't need 10 posts**

.

set your default scan page size to A4 less than 300DPI [150 will do]

scan the required letters/agreements/sheets - as a picture[jpg] file

don't forget you can use a mobile phone or a digital camera too!!

'

BUT......

ENSURE: remove all pers info inc. barcodes etc

but leave all monetary figures and dates.

.

************************* ************************* *******

{DO NOT USE A BIRO OR PEN OR USE SEE THRU TAPE OR LABELS]

************************* ************************* ***********

.

DO IT IN MSPAINT.EXE or any photo editing program

goto one of the many free online pdf converter websites ...

http://freejpgtopdf.com/

..

if you have multiple scans/pics

put them in a word doc FIRST and convert that to PDF

or http://www.freepdfconvert.com/

or

use www.pdfmerge.com

 

convert existing PC files to PDF [office has an installable print to PDF option]

..

it would be better to upload a multipage pdf if

you have many images too rather than many single pdfs

.

or if you have PDF as an installed printer drive use that

or use word and save as pdf

try and logically name your file so people know what it is.

though dont use full bank names or CAG in the title

i'e Default notice DD-mm-yyyy TSB

.

open a new msg box here

hit go advanced below the msg box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

...

YOU DONT have to put a link to the attachment in the msg box..just upload it ..job done

.

dx

[dx100uk]

Hi dx. Y

 

es we were living together during the time this debt accumulated.

 

During this period my wife was the only earner and the water account was in her name only.

 

Unknowingly to me she wasn't paying the water and sewerage bills.

 

The water company then put my name on the account and slammed a CCJ on me.

 

I didn't know anything about the CCJ until 8 months after it was issued.

 

My wife was obviously intercepting my post to hide her deception.

 

Shortly after my wife running away I was informed that the water company were applying for a charge order against my house.

 

I have a letter here from Bristol & Wessex water that clearly states that I am not allowed to sell my house.

 

I therefore assume that my house is worth nothing as I have no equity due to the charge order.

 

 

then you are equally liable sadly.

 

don't know where you keep getting this silly idea your house is worth nothing because of this

 

simply arrange to pay it off at a small monthly amount.

 

dx

[chiefmegawatty]

The house in my name so how have my wife and I become equally liable?

 

I have a letter from Bristol & Wessex Water clearly stating that I am not allowed to sell my house until the full amount is paid.

Small monthly amounts does not release my equity.

 

Why don't the water company demand half of the debt from my wife as you say we are equally liable?

 

Small monthly payments will not get rid of the charge order and allow me to use the equity.

Therefore why do you consider my comments as silly?

[honeybee13]

The house in my name so how have my wife and I become equally liable?

I have a letter from Bristol & Wessex Water clearly stating that I am not allowed to sell my house until the full amount is paid. Small monthly amounts does not release my equity.

Why don't the water company demand half of the debt from my wife as you say we are equally liable?

Small monthly payments will not get rid of the charge order and allow me to use tha equity. Therefore why do you consider my comments as silly?

 

Hello again.

 

As I said before, I think it would help us to advise you if we know the content of the letter minus any personal details. dx has told you how to post a pdf, or you could type it up for us.

 

HB

[dx100uk]

The house in my name so how have my wife and I become equally liable?

I have a letter from Bristol & Wessex Water clearly stating that I am not allowed to sell my house until the full amount is paid. Small monthly amounts does not release my equity.

Why don't the water company demand half of the debt from my wife as you say we are equally liable?

Small monthly payments will not get rid of the charge order and allow me to use the equity. Therefore why do you consider my comments as silly?

 

I mean the water bill

you were jointly livin there

so you are both liable for the debt.

 

the water company will not care who or how they get the money.

 

a charging order does not stop you selling your house

 

like all charging orders..

 

you either leave it there till the house is sold

and they get their money

 

or

 

you pay it off by making payments

 

once the debt is paid the CO is removed.

 

its a simple as that.

 

dx

[steampowered]

I don't understand why you aren't able to sell the house. As far as I'm aware a charging order does not stop you from selling. If you want to sell then go ahead and approach estate agents.

 

You are incorrect to state that the water company own the house. If you sell the house, the £1800 or so will be paid to the water company and the remainder will be paid to you.

 

You are incorrect to think that the order for sale would affect divorce proceedings. In long marriages, the court will start from the position that each side gets 50% of marital assets, subject to ensuring that the basic needs of both parties are met. This can be achieved in whatever way is most appropriate depending on the individual circumstances. It could mean a 50% share in the marital home, it could mean the house is sold and the money divided, or it could mean something else entirely. If you are forced to sell the house by the water company the wife could simply ask for 50% of the money. You can't really get around this.

 

I don't see how you can be 'accused' of selling the house with 'intent to deprive'. The accusation doesn't mean anything. The concept of 'intent' is not really relevant in civil cases and it would only be criminal if you moved the money outside the UK to try to stop her from getting anything. I think you need you need to think about the division of marital assets between you and your wife and the charging order from the water company as separate issues.

 

Bankruptcy is not appropriate here. Even if you do go bankrupt and it is discharged after 1 year, the CCJ would remain on your credit record for the full 6 years. Your credit record would also show a bankruptcy for 6 years ... which is worse than just having CCJs. Furthermore, the CCJs would not simply get 'wiped away' - the water company would still get paid because it has a charging order.

 

It sounds unlikely that the court would order a sale of the house over a debt of £1800. Your best option is to send an income & expenditure statement to the water company and seek to agree a repayment plan, even if you are only able to make very small repayments. You can approach an organisation like https://www.nationaldebtline.org for help.

 

I don't understand why you think this is entirely your wife's debt when you are the sole owner of the house. If you are the owner surely water usage is your responsibility and presumably you were using the water.

[mkb]

Risking your home for the sake of £1800 is madness.

 

Arrange an affordable payment plan with the water company, set up a standing order to pay it on time each month & move on with your life.