council car park,ticket not displayed. **Won**

[themagician]

i have received a penalty charge notice for not displaying a ticket in my windscreen,

 

 

bought the ticket put it on my windscreen and it was a very cold wet damp day,

 

 

the ticket must of fell off the screen down the front of the screen,

 

 

when i got back to the car i seen the traffic warden ,

 

 

i pulled out the parking ticket that had fallen off the screen and showed it to him,

 

 

he said sorry but i already written the ticket out for it,

 

 

but write into them and tell them whats happened and they will cancell it.

 

i did this and they have rejected my presentation of a dispute to them,

 

 

i have 14 days to pay .

 

is there anything i can do ???.

 

 

thanks in advance.

[letsgetitsorted]

you can appeal send a COPY of the ticket to the council, telling them what happened and that you spoke to the warden, the warden should have a copy of the conversation. appeal before the 14 days are up and send recorded to make sure they receive the appeal before the time is up...you may be able to appeal via email.

[themagician]

you can appeal send a COPY of the ticket to the council, telling them what happened and that you spoke to the warden, the warden should have a copy of the conversation. appeal before the 14 days are up and send recorded to make sure they receive the appeal before the time is up...you may be able to appeal via email.

you must of misread my post i've already appealed and they rejected it.

[Michael Browne]

Have a read of Adjudicator's annual report, there's a whole section Pages 7-15 on fluttering tickets

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j....70138588,d.ZGU

[Jamberson]

Probably not worth appealing further. I think you'd be better off paying while the discount applies. You have to have a ticket on display, and even if it's not your fault, the fact is, there was no ticket on display. I would definitely have tried an appeal, as you did, but as it hasn't worked, I wouldn't gamble the higher charges.

[WarrenBuffet]

Sorry jamberson but i disagree. First off i am in no way a parking ticket expert but the op cannot be held responsible for a dodgy ticket, which is not fit for purpose. IE: It failed to stay stuck to windscreen. I would take it to tribunal as you encounter "REASONABLE" people there. ...IMO.

[Jamberson]

If he takes it to the tribunal, chances are he will be stung with double the fee to pay. He has to display the ticket, and there's no basis to the statement that it was dodgy, or not fit for purpose. If he stuck it on a damp windscreen, then yes, it's likely to fall and he's in contravention.

 

If it were me, I would pay it. I can't see much hope that he can win at adjudication.

[Crazyhorse7]

Contest the ticket. I am a FORMER traffic warden and I issued lots of tickets under the same circumstances. It is just the warden doing his job and what he said was correct. For the tribunal to still uphold the pcn they would have to prove the ticket you have was not bought by you. Which council is it? Ask for the photographs as well.

 

As Warren said if it fails to stick or has NO sticky back its not your fault.

 

Good luck

[Jamberson]

Well, I'm a former council officer who ran a team dealing with appeals, and I can tell you that the tribunal will probably reject the appeal.

 

No-one is needing to prove who bought the ticket; getting photographs won't help; there's no basis to the suggestion that the ticket has no stick.

 

The important facts are, was the vehicle in situ, not displaying a ticket? The answer is not in dispute - yes it was. The case then hinges on mitigation - was it the driver's fault? In cases like this, usually (not always) it is held to be the driver's fault. It is a very common situation, and usually goes against the driver.

[Crazyhorse7]

Quite clearly you are from the other side of the coin and vote for Councils. This, obviously, depends on the Council involved. Most that I have worked for would not enforce this but I haven't worked for everybody. I suppose moral grounds will take effect. If this gets enforced then obviously this Council has no thoughts (or brains) as to the motorist in windy or inclement weather. (Can the weather be proved I wonder(ha!))

 

As a warden I was taught to look all over the car especially in foot-wells to see if any ticket was anywhere even upside down. I wonder if this particular person did this or not. I must admit if my ticket fell on the floor because it was blown because of no sticking surface I'd appeal and keep at it!

[Crazyhorse7]

My apologies in front of the dashboard in this case. Still the same outcome.

[green_and_mean]

If it was Council policy to cancel ALL face down tickets why would anyone pay anything more than the minimum? All you need to do is buy the cheapest ticket for 10 minutes or so and place face down and if you get a PCN send it in for a cancellation and get a days parking for a few pence! You could even just use an old ticket and then ask another motorist that's leaving for their old P&D and send that in and it would cost you nothing to park at all!

[Jamberson]

Quite clearly you are from the other side of the coin and vote for Councils.

 

What???

 

You might be right that policy varies from council to council. However in this case an appeal has already been made to the council, and it would seem that their policy is not to cancel the PCN. So, we need to consider what the adjudicator would do. It's all probabilities, but in my experience, cases like this rarely succeed. It would help if the ticket was visible at the time, on the dash for instance, and could be identified that way. But I understood it had fallen out of sight completely - you can imagine, if councils accepted appeals where no ticket was visible at the time, then no-one would bother buying a ticket!

[Crazyhorse7]

Jamberson: as you have read from the other thread we are following you are in fact an ex Council employee and have a reason to grab as much money as you can (not personally you understand). My point is that if the ticket was in the vehicle and it was showed to the CEO then his/her notes should be enough for a dismissal of the pcn. If not it just proves there are "dodgy" Councils out there.

 

I was very well trained in my position and it smells here of Councils taking people for a ride. Not displayed because of a gust of wind? Proven ticket showed to the CEO? Are you having a laugh; which moral fibres do you eat every day?

 

No apologies for the tirade but I think and believe that it's time to stop Council's from ripping people off in this way!

 

Grreen and mean the CEO has a timed computer so if the ticket was bought at let's say 9am for an hour and the CEO booked at 11am then there would be no comeback. Any valid ticket is generally accepted at appeal ESPECIALLY if the CEO has viewed it on return and it is a valid, payed for in time, ticket.

 

Clearly this particular Council does not believe in fairness or morals!

[Jamberson]

Jamberson: as you have read from the other thread we are following you are in fact an ex Council employee and have a reason to grab as much money as you can (not personally you understand). My point is that if the ticket was in the vehicle and it was showed to the CEO then his/her notes should be enough for a dismissal of the pcn. If not it just proves there are "dodgy" Councils out there.

 

I was very well trained in my position and it smells here of Councils taking people for a ride. Not displayed because of a gust of wind? Proven ticket showed to the CEO? Are you having a laugh; which moral fibres do you eat every day?

 

No apologies for the tirade but I think and believe that it's time to stop Council's from ripping people off in this way!

 

Grreen and mean the CEO has a timed computer so if the ticket was bought at let's say 9am for an hour and the CEO booked at 11am then there would be no comeback. Any valid ticket is generally accepted at appeal ESPECIALLY if the CEO has viewed it on return and it is a valid, payed for in time, ticket.

 

Clearly this particular Council does not believe in fairness or morals!

 

First of all, to save wasting time again - I left the council years ago. I don't like them, don't represent them and am on this forum purely to help people minimise the amount they have to pay.

 

The rest of what you say, "Notes should be enough", "dodgy councils", "taking people for a ride", "moral fibres", "ripping people off" - is all YOUR opinion. You see things that way, you have your morals etc - fine. That's your privilege.

 

But you and I know that whatever you think of the system, it isn't you who gets to decide the outcome of these appeals. It is the council and/or the adjudicators and the only useful advice is going to be based on THEIR opinion, and what THEY are likely to do. That much, I know something about, and that's why I take the time to explain to people. You can be as disgusted as you like about gusts of wind and liability - it doesn't help to give people advice based on your feelings. You need to know how the appeals process works out, and what is likely to happen as opposed to what you would like to happen.

[Pete_the_Postman]

Folks,

 

The law is VERY clear as regards parking tickets.

 

The ticket must be clearly displayed otherwise an offence is being committed.

 

If the ticket falls off the windscreen then it is at the discretion of the Local Authority as to whether the fine is levied or cancelled, since the owner has legally committed an offence, albeit unintentionally.

 

In this case the OP appealed and it was rejected.

 

From a Council point of view it might be argued that perhaps the OP never had a valid ticket in the first place (or it had run out). When he returned to his car he found the Traffic Warden's notice and then simply hung around for a few minutes until another driver returned and then purchased his ticket for £5 in order to avoid paying the fine.

 

I'm not for one minute suggesting that this is what happened, but that's what the Council officer might have thought.

 

Sorry, but I am guessing that you'll unfortunately need to cough up

[Crazyhorse7]

You're wrong Pete. Look at the first post. The OP had a ticket and produced it from the vehicle in front of the CEO.

 

Also each CEO's computer has a facility for going back and inserting notes to help "unfortunate" customers who have a valid ticket and things like this happen. T o add to this some Councils still use notebooks to aid/prove liability.

 

I'll leave this thread now as I've said what I need to. My advice is appeal and keep appealing. Not all Councils are as clean as they say.

 

Good luck magician!

[Jamberson]

My advice is appeal and keep appealing

 

The OP has appealed already, at the discounted rate and had it rejected. Now if they "Keep appealing" the stakes are twice as high. If they lose the second appeal, the debt will double. You get that??

 

You have to weigh up whether the case is worth fighting before advising people to appeal again. You are playing with their money, and you clearly don't know anything about the appeals process. Pete has just posted a clear, accurate description of the contravention and what is likely to happen. Read it. Understand it.

[green_and_mean]

Grreen and mean the CEO has a timed computer so if the ticket was bought at let's say 9am for an hour and the CEO booked at 11am then there would be no comeback. Any valid ticket is generally accepted at appeal ESPECIALLY if the CEO has viewed it on return and it is a valid, payed for in time, ticket.

 

Clearly this particular Council does not believe in fairness or morals!

 

 

Fairness is treating everyone equal! Most cars would not escape a visit in a council car park for 2 hours so your explanation is pointless. I've actually witnessed drivers giving other drivers a used ticket after they got a PCN so they can send it in. The whole point of having a ticket is to display it, hence the name 'pay and display' car park.

[themagician]

having read all the replys to this thread and all well appreciated ,but unfortunately I aint one for rolling over and giving up,the next step is to appeal again,then if no success I can then appeal again to a independent ajudicater last chance" saloon but hey ! ho! sometimes you gotta gamble to win,

he who dares Rodney. watch this space.

[Jamberson]

Have you seen the council's photographs? I was under the impression that the ticket had fallen out of sight, but if they have a photo of it face-down, and there's a serial number printed on the back, then that would help. You would be able to prove, by showing them the front, that you had a valid ticket in the car when the PCN was issued.

 

Failing that, I'm not optimistic you will win, but you never know. You could end up losing twice the amount.

[themagician]

Have you seen the council's photographs? I was under the impression that the ticket had fallen out of sight, but if they have a photo of it face-down, and there's a serial number printed on the back, then that would help. You would be able to prove, by showing them the front, that you had a valid ticket in the car when the PCN was issued.

 

Failing that, I'm not optimistic you will win, but you never know. You could end up losing twice the amount.

some times you gotta do what yah gotta do,i,m not loosing twice the amount I,m gambling it all. be positive.

[Jamberson]

OK. I'll be positive.

 

Let us know what happens.

[Pete_the_Postman]

You're wrong Pete. Look at the first post. The OP had a ticket and produced it from the vehicle in front of the CEO.

 

I never suggested that the OP didn't have a ticket. I said that a Council Officer could easily argue otherwise. Did the CEO privide a sworn statement that he/she had seen the ticket? Nope didn't think so. Therefore, there is no actual proof that any CEO saw the ticket. It's all down to what the OP claims happened. Therefore, it has no legal bearing on the matter. The OP might as well claim the he showed the ticket to Lord Lucan.

 

It's very easy to urge people to contest fines, especially when it's not your money.

 

The OP is not disputing that the ticket was not correctly displayed. Therefore legally the offence of failing to display a valid ticket has been committed.

 

I accept that it's a disgrace that many Councils do often take a harsh line, and I believe that some Councils see motorists as cash cows. The problem in this case is that the Council are legally correct, although morally wrong.

[queensclose]

its a catch 22 situation. if you win its wrote off. if you lose the ticket is full price. the offence is failing to display. in fairness he showed the ticket to the warden and it will confirm you had paid but it was still not displayed. you could argue that the council provided that type ticket and they are prone to blowing off dash boards on shutting doors. hence some councils they can be affixed to the windscreen (unless yours was and you didn't fix it to the windscreen)

 

on one can predict the outcome. it all depends if the adjudicator had a good nights sleep and your case is well presented