Train ticket taken off me - supected fraudlant

[theduke09]

Hi there

 

Train pass taken off me and told I was travelling fraudulently.I have been using the train network on Northern rail for about 9 years now.

 

I typically had a season pass or a monthly pass etc.In December I purchased my season pass as normal. In January, however a colleague at work told me his cousin no longer needed his annual pass and that I could have it for £100s if I wanted.

 

I have a 1 and 1/2 year old child and we are living off a pretty low income currently, with a very high level of debts. I didn’t really consider the authenticity of the pass, I just saw the cost saving and morally thought northern rail had been paid for the service so didn’t see an issue.

 

The pass looked for all and sundry that is was genuine and he even said I could take the pass for a day to prove it was real. I had my pass with me and but used this pass to check it was in fact real. 4 conductors saw the pass inspected it and all of them said it was fine.

 

I then got a refund on my season pass a week later and paid £100s for this pass. I used for it for just over 2 weeks when a guard on the train said he didn’t like the look of the ticket and took it off me.

 

My photo-card is registered at my Parents house and reading other posts on this forum I am awaiting a letter from the train company.I have been very foolish here, I should have considered the possibility of this been fake and realised it was in fact too good to be true.

 

I didn't realise the issue was this serious and that it could result in a criminal record etc.Reading other posts on this forum I could be at risk of losing my job and a hefty fine!

 

Really unsure as to what to do next, speak to a solicitor or just await the letter.Your help would be greatly appreciated here.

Edited February 3, 2015 by honeybee13
Paras.

[BazzaS]

Hi thereTrain pass taken off me and told I was travelling fraudulently.I have been using the train network on Northern rail for about 9 years now. I typically had a season pass or a monthly pass etc.In December I purchased my season pass as normal. In January, however a colleague at work told me his cousin no longer needed his annual pass and that I could have it for £100s if I wanted.I have a 1 and 1/2 year old child and we are living off a pretty low income currently, with a very high level of debts. I didn’t really consider the authenticity of the pass, I just saw the cost saving and morally thought northern rail had been paid for the service so didn’t see an issue. The pass looked for all and sundry that is was genuine and he even said I could take the pass for a day to prove it was real. I had my pass with me and but used this pass to check it was in fact real. 4 conductors saw the pass inspected it and all of them said it was fine.I then got a refund on my season pass a week later and paid £100s for this pass. I used for it for just over 2 weeks when a guard on the train said he didn’t like the look of the ticket and took it off me. My photo-card is registered at my Parents house and reading other posts on this forum I am awaiting a letter from the train company.I have been very foolish here, I should have considered the possibility of this been fake and realised it was in fact too good to be true. I didn't realise the issue was this serious and that it could result in a criminal record etc.Reading other posts on this forum I could be at risk of losing my job and a hefty fine! Really unsure as to what to do next, speak to a solicitor or just await the letter.Your help would be greatly appreciated here.

 

Is this:

A) Use their legit season (unaltered), that they wouldn't have got much refund on at month 11 or 12, hoping no-one notices the photocard number doesn't match

B) Use their legit season that they wouldn't have got much refund on at month 11 or 12, with it altered so the photocard number matches

C) you gave the fakers your photocard number (or a photo), and they created a fake season +/- photocard for you de novo

 

When you got your (December) season did you sign to accept any T's & C's (like non-transferability)?

 

As for "4 conductors saw the pass inspected it and all of them said it was fine" : did you just hand over the pass for inspection and they just didn't say it "wasn't fine", or did you draw their attention to events and they actually said "don't worry, it looks fine"?

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG. The forum guys should be along later with advice for you.

 

If I understand what you're saying, you were using someone else's pass with a photocard that isn't linked to it? And now you think it could be forged?

 

I remember seeing this not too long ago, but this person had bought a dodgy ticket online. I'll have a look for the thread, but I'm not sure if the OP posted the outcome.

 

As for contacting a lawyer, our advice is always to wait for the letter from the train company. Once that comes, you can let us know what it says and we'll help to to reply to it. Then you can see if you need a lawyer and will also have the name of the person dealing with your case so you can speak to them if need be.

 

My best, HB

[honeybee13]

Sorry Bazza, crossed posts.

 

HB

[honeybee13]

Me again. I know we don't have the full story yet, but this is the thread I was thinking of. Unfortunately the OP never updated us with what happened.

 

Apologies if it turns out to be irrelevant.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?425177-Counterfeit-Ticket&highlight=forged+ticket

 

HB

[theduke09]

I purchased my Decemeber renewal on my debit card. Nothing was signed. I got the refund in the middle of January and they took the train ticket off me but I retained my photocard ID. I then put the potentially fraudualant ticket in the wallet with my Photo ID and proceeded to use this. I have since discovered even if the ticket was genuine this would be an offence. Obviously this is something I wasn’t aware of, I would never have risked my job and lifehood for the sake of saving some money. I have been niave and guilty of not ensuring I checked the authenticity, however I certainly didn’t aim to defraud the train company. After all I have been a genuine paying customer for around 9 years.Unfortunetly as for the 4 conductors I just handed the ticket over for inspection.'If I understand what you're saying, you were using someone else's pass with a photocard that isn't linked to it? And now you think it could be forged?'That is correct HB.Thanks very much for your replies and i will look at the thread mentioned, thanks.

[BazzaS]

I purchased my Decemeber renewal on my debit card. Nothing was signed. I got the refund in the middle of January and they took the train ticket off me but I retained my photocard ID. I then put the potentially fraudualant ticket in the wallet with my Photo ID and proceeded to use this. I have since discovered even if the ticket was genuine this would be an offence. Obviously this is something I wasn’t aware of, I would never have risked my job and lifehood for the sake of saving some money. I have been niave and guilty of not ensuring I checked the authenticity, however I certainly didn’t aim to defraud the train company. After all I have been a genuine paying customer for around 9 years.Unfortunetly as for the 4 conductors I just handed the ticket over for inspection.'If I understand what you're saying, you were using someone else's pass with a photocard that isn't linked to it? And now you think it could be forged?'That is correct HB.Thanks very much for your replies and i will look at the thread mentioned, thanks.

 

"December RENEWAL .... nothing was signed" : OK, how about your first (non-renewal) purchase?.

 

Forget about using the "4 inspectors saw it & didn't spot it was a forgery" : if you didn't ask them to confirm its validity, explaining the circumstances, then that shows only that it was a passable forgery, not that you were tring to confirm its legitimacy.

 

Did the photocard number on the (presumed) forgery match your photocard number?

[theduke09]

There wasn't a number on the ticket. That section was blank. Again this is something that should have provoked me to have suspicions.

[theduke09]

On the point about signing I am afraid I have no clue. I don't specifically remember doing so but it was in 2006 so high chance I could have forgotten.

[theduke09]

Although I have just had to get myself another pass and there was no decleration signed, so I suspect this wasn't the case in 2006 either.

[worried person]

Me again. I know we don't have the full story yet, but this is the thread I was thinking of. Unfortunately the OP never updated us with what happened.

 

Apologies if it turns out to be irrelevant.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?425177-Counterfeit-Ticket&highlight=forged+ticket

 

HB

 

Hey Honeybee,

 

He was charged under Section 6 of the Fraud act - Possession of articles for use in fraud (Section 6)

The defendant:

 

had possession or control of;

an article;

for use in the course of or in connection with any fraud.

 

He has pleaded not guilty and is in crown court this Thursday for his trial. He is defending it on the bases that he did not know it was a fraudulent ticket and therefore could not have been in use of it in the course of or connection of fraud.

[worried person]

I purchased my Decemeber renewal on my debit card. Nothing was signed. I got the refund in the middle of January and they took the train ticket off me but I retained my photocard ID. I then put the potentially fraudualant ticket in the wallet with my Photo ID and proceeded to use this. I have since discovered even if the ticket was genuine this would be an offence. Obviously this is something I wasn’t aware of, I would never have risked my job and lifehood for the sake of saving some money. I have been niave and guilty of not ensuring I checked the authenticity, however I certainly didn’t aim to defraud the train company. After all I have been a genuine paying customer for around 9 years.Unfortunetly as for the 4 conductors I just handed the ticket over for inspection.'If I understand what you're saying, you were using someone else's pass with a photocard that isn't linked to it? And now you think it could be forged?'That is correct HB.Thanks very much for your replies and i will look at the thread mentioned, thanks.

 

Unfortunately as I have since found out tickets are not transferable and should only be bought from designated outlets, like the station, ticket off or online through certified agents.

[theduke09]

(sorry it will not allow me to paragraph) Just as an update, and if anyone could offer any help that would be greatly appreciated.I was stopped by BTP at my local station and asked to voluntarily attend an interview.I did this, told them everything I knew and told them the person who had given me the ticket and his phone number.

 

 

The ticket was in fact counterfeit.I was originally told I was looking at a caution, however following the interview with the seller, they have now decided to pursue through the court under 'Possession of an article for use in Fraud'. This, according to the officer is because there is no admission of guilt (despite me having no clue whatsoever that this wasn’t a real ticket). From what I am aware, the seller confirmed that I didn’t not know the ticket was fake and he told me it was his cousins that he no longer required.

 

However the CPS do not believe I didn’t know so this will be taken to court.

 

If this was to lead to a criminal conviction I would without question lose my job and with a young child I really can't afford this to happen. As you can imagine I can't sleep or think about anything else at the moment.My questions are, having done some reading this is an either way offence, would this allow me to chose between crown or magistrates court?

 

If so would you recommend either? Also would you speak to a solicitor or wait until I receive a letter. I have not had any experience of this before so unsure how long I will have to respond to the letter etc.

 

I am going to plead not guilty, as I stated I in no way intended to commit fraud.Mnay thanks for your help

Edited April 13, 2015 by citizenB

[BazzaS]

(sorry it will not allow me to paragraph) Just as an update, and if anyone could offer any help that would be greatly appreciated.I was stopped by BTP at my local station and asked to voluntarily attend an interview.I did this, told them everything I knew and told them the person who had given me the ticket and his phone number. The ticket was in fact counterfeit.I was originally told I was looking at a caution, however following the interview with the seller, they have now decided to pursue through the court under 'Possession of an article for use in Fraud'. This, according to the officer is because there is no admission of guilt (despite me having no clue whatsoever that this wasn’t a real ticket). From what I am aware, the seller confirmed that I didn’t not know the ticket was fake and he told me it was his cousins that he no longer required. However the CPS do not believe I didn’t know so this will be taken to court.If this was to lead to a criminal conviction I would without question lose my job and with a young child I really can't afford this to happen. As you can imagine I can't sleep or think about anything else at the moment.My questions are, having done some reading this is an either way offence, would this allow me to chose between crown or magistrates court? If so would you recommend either? Also would you speak to a solicitor or wait until I receive a letter. I have not had any experience of this before so unsure how long I will have to respond to the letter etc. I am going to plead not guilty, as I stated I in no way intended to commit fraud.Mnay thanks for your help

 

Is this stated as "contrary to S6, Fraud Act 2006" or equivalent?

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/contents

 

"A person is guilty of an offence if he has in his possession or under his control any article for use in the course of or in connection with any fraud"

 

Fraud is defined in S1,

1(1) A person is guilty of fraud if he is in breach of any of the sections listed in subsection (2) (which provide for different ways of committing the offence).

 

1(2) The sections are—

 

(a) section 2 (fraud by false representation),

 

(b) section 3 (fraud by failing to disclose information), and

 

© section 4 (fraud by abuse of position).

 

 

Thus this is likely to be possession with the contended subsequent fraud (which could have been by you or others) being fraud by false representation: the components being

 

dishonestly makes a false representation, and (b)intends, by making the representation—

(i)to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

(2)A representation is false if—

(a)it is untrue or misleading, and

(b)the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading

 

 

I doubt for this case they'd find it hard to show that the representation was false, since they'll say you knew it might be untrue (not that it WAS untrue, but MIGHT be, since you didn't buy the ticket from an official source).

 

You are already focusing on the fact that you didn't intend to defraud, and thus you are saying that you didn't make the representation dishonestly.

 

Dishonesty has Ghosh as the relevant case law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Ghosh

Hence the test for dishonesty must be both subjective and objective. As a result, we have the 'Ghosh test', which jury must consider before reaching a verdict on dishonesty:

 

1. Was the act one that an ordinary decent person (normally considered to be the ubiquitous ‘The man on the Clapham omnibus’) would consider to be dishonest (the objective test)? If so :
   
2. Must the accused have realised that what he was doing was, by those standards, dishonest (the subjective test)?
   

Note that it is not essential for a person to admit that they acted in a way that they knew to be dishonest, it is probably enough that they knew others would think their behaviour was dishonest, or that they thought that what they were doing was ‘wrong

you'll say "I didn't even think it was wrong". The CPS will no doubt say "Of course he wants you to believe that, but that is fanciful and far-fetched : any man in the street will know that it was wrong, and he would have known it".

 

 

http://e-lawresources.co.uk/R-v-Ghosh.php

Lord Lane (Lord Chief Justice) apparently noted at the time:

"In determining whether the prosecution has proved that the defendant was acting dishonestly, a jury must first of all decide whether according to the ordinary standards of reasonable and honest people what was done was dishonest. If it was not dishonest by those standards, that is the end of the matter and the prosecution fails.

 

 

If it was dishonest by those standards, then the jury must consider whether the defendant himself must have realised that what he was doing was by those standards dishonest."

I'd suggest getting advice from a solicitor, who is known to your local court and who specializes in Criminal Law, and asking them in particular re: Ghosh, seeking their advice.

[Old-CodJA]

"December RENEWAL .... nothing was signed" : OK, how about your first (non-renewal) purchase?.

 

 

 

On the point about signing I am afraid I have no clue. I don't specifically remember doing so but it was in 2006 so high chance I could have forgotten.

 

 

 

I would not be concerned by whether or not you signed any T&Cs. Signature in such a case is completely irrelevant. By purchasing & using a season ticket you are deemed to have accepted the conditions of issue and use in a legal sense.

 

Wait until you get a letter from the TOC. Once you get that you will have the unique reference number allocated to your case and will know what office is dealing with it.

 

In my opinion it is unlikely that this would be prosecuted under the Fraud Act (2006) unless it the ticket is a high value forgery that can be attributed to you (the OP), or another identified individual. This is for a variety of reasons, which I will not go into here because they will be a diversion from what the OP needs to concentrate on.

 

Prosecution remains a very real possibility, but under specific railways legislation

 

I suggest that when you receive the letter from the TOC come back and tell us exactly what it says in order that case specific suggestions can be made. If you decide to consult a solicitor (which isn't necessary before you know what problem you face) make sure that it is one who specialises in criminal law and preferably one who is known to the Court at which any case might be heard.

 

I would not contact a solicitor until you get notice from the TOC that you are to be charged with an offence, (on rare occasions TOCs actually lose paperwork and can't proceed) but once you do get such a notice you can consider how best to deal with it. Don't tell them anything that they don't already know at this stage is probably the best advice.

[BazzaS]

I would not be concerned by whether or not you signed any T&Cs. Signature in such a case is completely irrelevant. By purchasing & using a season ticket you are deemed to have accepted the conditions of issue and use in a legal sense.

 

Wait until you get a letter from the TOC. Once you get that you will have the unique reference number allocated to your case and will know what office is dealing with it.

 

In my opinion it is unlikely that this would be prosecuted under the Fraud Act (2006) unless it the ticket is a high value forgery that can be attributed to you (the OP), or another identified individual. This is for a variety of reasons, which I will not go into here because they will be a diversion from what the OP needs to concentrate on.

 

Prosecution remains a very real possibility, but under specific railways legislation

 

I suggest that when you receive the letter from the TOC come back and tell us exactly what it says in order that case specific suggestions can be made. If you decide to consult a solicitor (which isn't necessary before you know what problem you face) make sure that it is one who specialises in criminal law and preferably one who is known to the Court at which any case might be heard.

 

I would not contact a solicitor until you get notice from the TOC that you are to be charged with an offence, (on rare occasions TOCs actually lose paperwork and can't proceed) but once you do get such a notice you can consider how best to deal with it. Don't tell them anything that they don't already know at this stage is probably the best advice.

 

 

OCJ, the OP seems to say this is a BTP/CPS prosecution, rather than a TOC prosecution? (The OP has had an interview under caution from BTP)

 

 

.I was originally told I was looking at a caution, however following the interview with the seller, they have now decided to pursue through the court under 'Possession of an article for use in Fraud'.

 

........

 

However the CPS do not believe I didn’t know so this will be taken to court.

 

 

,,,,,,

 

If so would you recommend either? Also would you speak to a solicitor or wait until I receive a letter. I have not had any experience of this before so unsure how long I will have to respond to the letter etc.

 

 

 

OP, have you received a summons? if not, how have you heard that "they have now decided to pursue through the court under 'Possession of an article for use in Fraud"?

[theduke09]

Thanks for your help so far guys.I have had an interview under caution with BTP and the police officer involved has called me to inform that I will be charged under 'possesion of an article for use in fraud' and that a summons will be with me in 2-6 weeks.

[Old-CodJA]

OCJ, the OP seems to say this is a BTP/CPS prosecution, rather than a TOC prosecution? (The OP has had an interview under caution from BTP

 

 

 

 

 

Aah! Sorry, half asleep this morning, I'd missed it.

 

This is a more serious case than I'd noted.

 

Definitely seek advice of a solicitor specialising in criminal law and preferably one known to the Court where this matter is likely to be heard.

 

This will be what's known as an 'either / or' matter meaning that you can elect for trial at a Crown Court. This is a serious matter and you need proper representation.

[firstclassx]

What's the value of the loss?

 

If it's in the 000s then Magistrates Court will likely refer to Crown Court for sentencing and/or trial.

 

If it's in the hundreds then Magistrates Court will normally keep it at their level.

 

If it goes to the Crown, I am afraid you are facing the loss of your liberty, especially if found guilty at the end of a "not guilty" plea. To the average man in the street, if something seems to good to be true, it probably is. Secondly, as you appear to be a seasoned commuter, it is likely that you have a reasonable understanding of rail tickets/products etc. To say you did not know it was fake or notice it was in someway "different" to previous tickets is hard to believe.

 

I think if a guilty plea was made at Magistrates Court, they may be persuaded to keep the sentencing at the lower level.

[Old-CodJA]

What's the value of the loss?

 

If it's in the 000s then Magistrates Court will likely refer to Crown Court for sentencing and/or trial.

 

If it's in the hundreds then Magistrates Court will normally keep it at their level.

 

If it goes to the Crown, I am afraid you are facing the loss of your liberty, especially if found guilty at the end of a "not guilty" plea. To the average man in the street, if something seems to good to be true, it probably is. Secondly, as you appear to be a seasoned commuter, it is likely that you have a reasonable understanding of rail tickets/products etc. To say you did not know it was fake or notice it was in someway "different" to previous tickets is hard to believe.

 

I think if a guilty plea was made at Magistrates Court, they may be persuaded to keep the sentencing at the lower level.

 

 

I'd agree with that summary.

 

 

The Magistrates may be persuaded to keep this in the Magistrates Court if we are talking loss at a lower level and it is definitely in the OPs interest to keep it in the lower Court if possible.

[theduke09]

The ticket is different from every other ticket I have purchased. It included buses etc so in now way similar to the one I typically buy. You must appreciate as well, this ticket was used and went past 4 guards a day for a period of time so it clearly wasn't that easy to spot discrepencies. As stated the seller was known to me for a number of years so had no reason to suspect anything. The loss to the rail company is a lot less than £100.

[BazzaS]

The ticket is different from every other ticket I have purchased. It included buses etc so in now way similar to the one I typically buy. You must appreciate as well, this ticket was used and went past 4 guards a day for a period of time so it clearly wasn't that easy to spot discrepencies. As stated the seller was known to me for a number of years so had no reason to suspect anything. The loss to the rail company is a lot less than £100.

 

 

Yet, you previously wrote:

 

 

In January, however a colleague at work told me his cousin no longer needed his annual pass and that I could have it for £100s if I wanted.

.

.

.

.

.

 

I then got a refund on my season pass a week later and paid £100s for this pass. I used for it for just over 2 weeks when a guard on the train said he didn’t like the look of the ticket and took it off me.

 

 

So, as for "The loss to the rail company is a lot less than £100" : why were you buying (a fake, not from a legitimate source) for "£100s" if the "loss to the rail company is a lot less than £100"..

 

The ticket you should have bought clearly was worth hundreds of pounds.

If you are claiming the actual loss was less because you got caught early on .... I doubt that would impress a court.

 

Even so, ANY loss to the TOC would fulfill the "loss to another" component of a fraud.

 

I'm also concerned that you might be considering using "this ticket was used and went past 4 guards a day for a period of time so it clearly wasn't that easy to spot discrepencies" in court. Again, I doubt a court will be impressed by "it was a fake, but you should use the fact it was a good fake in my favour" !

[Old-CodJA]

In January, however a colleague at work told me his cousin no longer needed his annual pass and that I could have it for £100s if I wanted.

 

 

The best chance you have of reducing the impact for you in this case now is to give a full statement identifying the person who offered and sold you the faked ticket.

[BazzaS]

The best chance you have of reducing the impact for you in this case now is to give a full statement identifying the person who offered and sold you the faked ticket.

 

Sorry (again!) OCJ, but from my reading of it, the OP has done this:

 

 

 

and asked to voluntarily attend an interview.I did this, told them everything I knew and told them the person who had given me the ticket and his phone number.

 

, however following the interview with the seller, they have now decided to pursue through the court under 'Possession of an article for use in Fraud'.

 

This, according to the officer is because there is no admission of guilt (despite me having no clue whatsoever that this wasn’t a real ticket).

 

From what I am aware, the seller confirmed that I didn’t not know the ticket was fake and he told me it was his cousins that he no longer required.

[Old-CodJA]

The important point being that the OP should be dealing with this through a solicitor, who should be querying with the Police whether or not action is being pursued against the 'seller' and if not, why not.

 

Selling by an unauthorised person, or obtaining a ticket from an unauthorised source are both offences that should be pursued and if the OPs story is wholly accurate, there would appear to be no reason why that is not the case

 

There seem to be a number of inconsistencies in this one