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Won againist Council + high court + how do we claim loss!!!!


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Hello guys,

 

 

I am sorry two questions in one post I feel they are related and can be answered together.

 

Question one.

 

After 9 months and £13,000 of legal expenses. 2 barristers, 3 solicitors, 2 high court visits and 2 tribunal visits, my friend has won against the local council.

 

They wanted him to pay £3600 in council tax and his argument was the tenant was responsible 8 years after the event. All contracts, letters and recorded delivery slips which he used to inform the council were kept. He won the case out right.

 

Now a lot of people are telling him you cant claim legal expenses or personal losses due to the fact its the council. If he did it everyone else would.

 

He is being informed unto total cost of £18,000 is his.

He cant claim a single penny for his loss.

 

Please advise. Please note he has proof of everything.

From the case to earnings to legal invoices.

 

Question two.

 

After seven phone calls including to head office, local office and individual who invited us to the local car show room the following happened.

 

They failed to understand the car I wanted.

They failed to understand the cost of the car.

They failed to understand the monthly repayments of the car.

They failed to understand the context or pretext or the ONLY reason why we would visit them.

 

At the cost of 2 hours round trip.

At the cost of diesel and time.

 

When we reached there we were informed the maximum I could borrow was 45% of what I wanted. And also they did not have the cars. Both cars were not available. Discussing this with the manager he said unless you were here we can not tell you about the car or the finance.

 

In seven phone call including the one that invited me down was the following.

 

“Are you sure I have been accepted? Yes!

“for the Galaxy” Yes!

“for the Prius? Yes!

“what is the maximum they are willing to lend?(3 lenders apparent)! Any!

 

I even went further, I said I am only going to travel because YOU are saying I can get either of the 2 cares. Yes come down I was told.

 

When we went there nothing. All lies.

 

If I was on minimum wage along with my friend. I think the total lost including time and diesel is £22.

 

What shall I do?

Please I cant let them get away with it.

This is pure day light robbery.

 

Ali

 

Hello guys,

 

I am sorry two questions in one post I feel they are related and can be answered together.

 

Question one.

 

After 9 months and £13,000 of legal expenses. 2 barristers, 3 solicitors, 2 high court visits and 2 tribunal visits, my friend has won against the local council.

 

They wanted him to pay £3600 in council tax and his argument was the tenant was responsible 8 years after the event. All contracts, letters and recorded delivery slips which he used to inform the council were kept. He won the case out right.

 

Now a lot of people are telling him you cant claim legal expenses or personal losses due to the fact its the council. If he did it everyone else would.

 

He is being informed unto total cost of £18k is his.

He cant claim a single penny for his loss.

 

Please advise. Please note he has proof of everything.

From the case to earnings to legal invoices.

 

Can he claim, if so where to go?

 

Question two.

 

After seven phone calls including to head office, local office and individual who invited us to the local car show room the following happened.

 

They failed to understand the car I wanted.

They failed to understand the cost of the car.

They failed to understand the monthly repayments of the car.

They failed to understand the context or pretext or the ONLY reason why we would visit them.

 

At the cost of 2 hours round trip.

At the cost of diesel and time.

 

When we reached there we were informed the maximum I could borrow was 45% of what I wanted. And also they did not have the cars. Both cars were not available. Discussing this with the manager he said unless you were here we can not tell you about the car or the finance.

 

In seven phone call including the one that invited me down was the following.

 

“Are you sure I have been accepted? Yes!

“for the Galaxy” Yes!

“for the Prius? Yes!

“what is the maximum they are willing to lend?(3 lenders apparent)! Any!

 

I even went further, I said I am only going to travel because YOU are saying I can get either of the 2 cares. Yes come down I was told.

 

When we went there nothing. All lies.

 

If I was on minimum wage along with my friend.

I think the total lost including time and diesel is £22.

 

What shall I do?

Please I cant let them get away with it.

This is pure day light robbery.

 

Ali

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There were two threads for what appears to be the same issue - I have merged.

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Q1: Depends where the case was heard. He would normally get back legal costs (but not loss of earnings) if the claim was issued in court, but the rules of various tribunals differ. If there was to be an award of costs it would normally be included in the order/judgment made by the tribunal and not separately claimed at a later date. Surely this is something the solicitor/barrister would have dealt with.

 

 

Q2: I can't see any real comeback. No contract was formed.

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So £13k spent on proving he was right means he can get £13k back or not?

 

solicitors at most time were being "bar-stewards". So they did not inform him at what stage he can claim the £13k.

 

He does have alot of loss of earnings. However as long as he can get his £13k back it is imporant.

 

Can i be gudied to some kind of firm or solictor?

 

Finally is it really true to prove your right you need to spend £13k and they get away with it when they were 100% wrong?

 

Ali

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Whether he can claim back the money depends on what tribunal or court the case was heard in. This kind of detail is important.

 

His friends are wrong to say you can't get costs against a council, since councils get ordered to pay legal costs when they lose court hearings all the time, but that doesn't necessarily mean your friend can get his costs.

 

If there was any award of costs, it would normally be included in the order made by the court/tribunal at the end of the hearing. Why doesn't he ask his solicitor about this?

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So my friend you are saying one of his letters or judements for the case he got should have a part where it says he can claim the cost of his legal fees and not loss.

 

as long as he gets his legal fees is the first and best step.

 

so in the "order" it says you can claim.

 

I belive he had to write for this to high court again and then they issued something.

 

I will find out.

 

Ali

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So my friend you are saying one of his letters or judements for the case he got should have a part where it says he can claim the cost of his legal fees and not loss.

 

as long as he gets his legal fees is the first and best step.

 

so in the "order" it says you can claim.

Correct - this is the standard procedure (at least in the court system and the tribunals I am familiar with. I'm not familiar with Valuation Tribunal re: council tax).

 

I belive he had to write for this to high court again and then they issued something.

 

I will find out.

 

Cost award was not given to him, why or how i have no idea. "cost award" now is that legal expenses or his loss?

Yes, a costs award would be legal expenses. Costs are normally dealt with as a separate issue from the actual sum in dispute.

 

In order to give a sensible answer to your question we would need to know the background including what the history of the case, what the dispute actually involved and where it was heard. You refer to the High Court but its not clear to me why the High Court would be involved in a council tax case (I can think of reasons but I would be speculating).

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Correct - this is the standard procedure (at least in the court system and the tribunals I am familiar with. I'm not familiar with Valuation Tribunal re: council tax).

 

 

Yes, a costs award would be legal expenses. Costs are normally dealt with as a separate issue from the actual sum in dispute.

 

In order to give a sensible answer to your question we would need to know the background including what the history of the case, what the dispute actually involved and where it was heard. You refer to the High Court but its not clear to me why the High Court would be involved in a council tax case (I can think of reasons but I would be speculating).

I assume the OP means County Court and not High Court and that her friend was sued for £3600.00 so it would be a small claim so no order for costs.

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I assume the OP means County Court and not High Court and that her friend was sued for £3600.00 so it would be a small claim so no order for costs.

Indeed. I don't really understand why the op's friend would have incurred £13k - 18k of legal costs fighting a claim for £3600. I suspect there are background details that would make this clearer.

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  • 5 months later...

Hi guys,

 

first of all I am sorry if this is in the wrong section.

 

Kindly bare with me.

 

My brother has won the case against the council for unpaid council tax.

 

  1. he went to the tribunaral and lost.
  2. He went to high court and won, which then refered him back to the triburnal.
  3. He wont the tribunal.

  4. Now the council wanted £3900 from him after 4 years 11 months and 3 weeks. I understand after 5 years they cant claim the unpaid.
     
    Instead with loss of earnings and solicitor and barrister and highcourt fees my brother has lost £18k
     
    question is.

 

  1. is there a time period when he can use the council for the £18k
  2. is there a time period for when he can sue for legal losts around £12k
  3. what kind of solictors does he need? Which area?
  4. Can he take legal aid as funds are dried up now?

  5. He lost firstly because he went by himself with all the proofs to show the property was tenanted and he was not liable.
     
    He then got a solictor and barrister to go to high court.
     
    And then another team again to look into the case and help with the 2nd tribunal as he had a falling out with the first team.
     
    Both high court and the tribunaral said my brother was never liable for the council tax.
     
    Without earnings and other costs his legal fees are close to £12000. the council only wanted £3900.
     
    please kindly help as we are poor and we need help and support urgently.
     
     
    Ali

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I am confused:???:

 

You say he won then go on to say he lost

?

 

You could of started a formal complaint with the council then taken it on to the local government odudsman

If i have helped in any way hit my star.

any advice given is based on experience and learnt from this site :-)

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Did not his solicitors explain about costs?, has he paid them ? Normally you would hand in the costs to the court and the judge may decide on costs there and then or be done at a separate hearing, what tribunal was it ?, at property ones them costs are very limited. I hope he checked this before spending 18000 to save 3000.

 

We will need more details to help you.

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The High Court would normally award the successful party their costs. There would usually be an order stating that one party is awarded costs, to be assessed if not agreed. I imagine the same applies for the Tribunal. Costs are normally awarded as part of an existing claim, you don't normally make a new claim for them.

 

I think we'd need to see a .PDF of the High Court order and Tribunal order to comment further.

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I have experience of the First Tier Tribunal (Property) and no costs can be claimed there, unless under the 'unreasonable, vextatious' rule. I don't know whether all Tribunals opeate the same rule, also I don't think this would apply to the High Court part of the claim.

 

What has happened here is also something quite common in the Property Tribunal where a High Court (Or normally the Upper Tribunal) points out that the original Tribunal has made a mistake in law but returns it to the Tribunal to try again and in this case, successfully.

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Friends,

 

Thank you.

 

please answer this.

 

1. is there a lime limit to when we can request the £18000 loss or the £12000 legal costs?

2. Which law brance, tree, expertise area helps to recover costs and things when you win?

 

We have won the case 100%. We have all documents and invoices and tax returns and so forth to prove £18000 of total loss.

 

Regardless of the steps taken which cost us £18000, what we need to know is can we wait maybe 1 year or so have enough money and get another legal team to get our loss back?

 

We dont know which lawyers to apporach or how much time we have!

 

We spoke to one team they said pay £1000 just to read the case.

 

In highcourt the reward cost or cost reward paper work was not submitted so we have to do that speartly.

 

AS THIS IS NOT ME OR MY CASE I am sorry i have submitted in this post all that i know.

 

Ali

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2. Which law brance, tree, expertise area helps to recover costs and things when you win?

 

See below

 

 

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part-44-general-rules-about-costs

 

CPR 44-47

 

Andy

We could do with some help from you.

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What do the £18,000 consist of? Why are the loss of earnings so high?

 

I also don't understand why his legal team didn't deal with costs during the High Court case.

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Dude so many questions and all i want is area of law that deals with my question and SEE if there is a time period in which to make the claim.

 

Instead all these questions which are of no use to me at all.

 

ON INVOICE legal bills which were paid amount to £11790. 3 Solictors and 2 Barristers. X3 Tribunal attendence + 2 High court appearance.

 

£8000 is loss of earnings of 5 witnesses + loss of work. All doucmented. All black and white on paper.

 

out of 5 withnesses 4 of them have letters from employers.

 

1 was a driving instructor with canclilations for lessons from the AA driving school.

 

loss of earnings proof consists of Accoutant and tax returns. Bank statments.

 

£12000 legal cost is invoiced and paid.

 

the dopey retarded barrister said we cant win costs against the council if we could all would do it. We cant win againist them as they never pay so dont include it in.

 

so the cost reward review sheet or what ever it was called never got incerted. We were told we can do a seperate claim for a review of this case and include the cost at later date.

 

That is all

 

Ali

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Phil the posters responding to you, are asking questions as your OP was not exactly clear on the facts.

 

So going by your latest post. The legal bills involved in this case were £11790.

 

Has this been paid?

 

Did your brother choose to use all these legal minds knowing what their fees & charges would be beforehand?

 

 

As I personally, if I required a Solicitor for anything, my first question would be how much & then ask for a break down of charges.

 

So I then would be going into a Court case knowing I would/could have £xx in costs to bear.

 

As for the £8000 in loss of earnings, this sum is enormous indeed.

 

Have you tried speaking to the Solicitor involved with regards in reclaiming the costs etc?

 

My mind boggles at the fact that it has cost £18000 in fees etc, in a case that originally involved £3900!!

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every single minute of it!!

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Dude so many questions and all i want is area of law that deals with my question and SEE if there is a time period in which to make the claim.

 

Instead all these questions which are of no use to me at all.

 

ON INVOICE legal bills which were paid amount to £11790. 3 Solictors and 2 Barristers. X3 Tribunal attendence + 2 High court appearance.

 

£8000 is loss of earnings of 5 witnesses + loss of work. All doucmented. All black and white on paper.

 

out of 5 withnesses 4 of them have letters from employers.

 

1 was a driving instructor with canclilations for lessons from the AA driving school.

 

loss of earnings proof consists of Accoutant and tax returns. Bank statments.

 

£12000 legal cost is invoiced and paid.

 

the dopey retarded barrister said we cant win costs against the council if we could all would do it. We cant win againist them as they never pay so dont include it in.

 

so the cost reward review sheet or what ever it was called never got incerted. We were told we can do a seperate claim for a review of this case and include the cost at later date.

 

That is all

 

Ali

Right.

 

Have you got a copy of the final Order from the High Court? What does it say about costs?

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Costs would normally be awarded on the day of the proceedings. I don't think there is any more advice we can give you, unless you are able to type out exactly what is said on the High Court order and Tribunal order.

 

Why you would need 5 witnesses to attend a case about council tax is a mystery. There is a huge amount we don't know about the case. It isn't possible to give useful advice without more information. There isn't really a short answer to the questions you are asking.

 

The area of legal expertise would simply be general litigation.

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