Staff theatened with sack? if they dont offer store card to every customer?

[billathome65]

Most retailers have it as part of training that store cards etc be offered and as long as you offer the card you are following policy. If your being threatend with dismissal tell the manager to put that in writing and I bet he won't.

 

Regards Bill

[fletch70]

From what I can see the way they would do it is to follow the disciplinary procedure for poor performance or failing to follow a reasonable instruction. Contracts of employment are generally pretty vague and have expressions such as 'this is not an exhaustive list' .

I am afraid that I believe both renegade and dx to be mistaken when they say that unless it is a specific job description they can do nothing.

 

I also feel that whatever your personal feelings about the manager and her inexperience you are working in the capitalist corporate world and if she doesn't achieve targets she will be replaced by someone who will, then they will increase the targets anyway. I am afraid to say you really need to pick your battles and providing they follow disciplinary procedure this would be a battle you would lose.

 

Profit is king in business and they really do not care one jot about the workers be they managers or shop floor employees.

[fletch70]

Duplicate

[Emmzzi]

I would query the 10% discount as I think it is illegal

 

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cardsloans/article-2064322/How-new-store-card-rules-protect-shoppers.html

[Geordie Joe]

From what I can see the way they would do it is to follow the disciplinary procedure for poor performance or failing to follow a reasonable instruction. Contracts of employment are generally pretty vague and have expressions such as 'this is not an exhaustive list' .

 

 

I think you have completely missed the point. Under the old manager the "rules" were, if a customer is buying a high priced item and you think they might go for a store card, give it a try.

 

The new manager has changed the rules to "offer every customer a store card, and offer another two times if they keep saying no, and offer them a 10% discount on what they are buying if they take out a store card". This applies to all staff, not just till operators.

 

I do not believe the company wants every customer harassed 3 times by every member of staff the come across, even when they are only buying a £1.99 paint brush. I also don't think the company wants staff to offer a discount if they take out a store card because it is against some rule or other.

 

if she doesn't achieve targets she will be replaced by someone who will, then they will increase the targets anyway.

 

I've already mentioned that we are achieving the targets. She just wants to prove she is better than the last manager by increasing the number of new cards we get. And as I said, she is new and doesn't know that all that will happen is the targets will be increased, then she will be under pressure to reach them.

 

I am afraid to say you really need to pick your battles and providing they follow disciplinary procedure this would be a battle you would lose.

 

Sorry but I am not a coward, if a battle needs fighting I will fight it, regardless of my chances of winning.

 

Profit is king in business and they really do not care one jot about the workers be they managers or shop floor employees.

 

I know that, but I'm not fighting "them", I'm fighting the manager, and I believe that if I had any proof "they" would be on my side.

 

The problem is getting proof, the manager doesn't tell the shop floor staff what to do, she tells the team leader and she tells the shop floor staff. So if she is doing wrong and there was an investigation I have no doubt she would say the team leader misunderstood what she said and told the shop floor staff the wrong thing.

 

I need to get proof that what the team leader is saying comes from the manager, and actually is what she said, and that it is wrong.

[Sidewinder]

I would query the 10% discount as I think it is illegal

 

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cardsloans/article-2064322/How-new-store-card-rules-protect-shoppers.html

 

Don't think it is 'illegal' - but a breach of a voluntary code of practice certainly

[Emmzzi]

Don't think it is 'illegal' - but a breach of a voluntary code of practice certainly

 

 

Fair point Financial conduct isn't really my area!

[fletch70]

Joe

am not suggesting you or anyone else would be a coward it is just being pragmatic. You make several assertions about the fact your store is on target, the manager is new and doesn't realise ( maybe wrongly but I sense a slightly sexist tone there) and that you do know what the company want. You also say the rules have been changed, again are said before , are you sure the rules have been changed or are now just being applied as per company policy. I am sad to say that in my experience businesses do not like their employees to think or make a decision , just do what they are told.

I do agree that asking 3 times could be considered overkill but certainly before xmas I shopped in BHS a few times and every time I paid I was asked if I wanted to apply for a store card.

If however you feel that you have a grievance then I suggest that you follow your companies grievance procedure, I would also suggest that you join a union although my personal opinion of USDAW is not high but maybe this website will offer alternatives http://www.worksmart.org.uk/unionfinder/choose.php

[Geordie Joe]

Joe

You make several assertions about the fact your store is on target,

Not assertions, facts. We have several targets and they are pinned onto the staff noticeboard every week, along with a chart showing all stores in our region, what there targets were, what they achieved and where they stand in the regional and national league table. It's there to encourage us to do better and get higher up the leagues.

 

the manager is new and doesn't realise ( maybe wrongly but I sense a slightly sexist tone there)

 

Not sexist, she hasn't been here long enough to see that when you reach targets they increase them.

 

and that you do know what the company want.

 

I said I know what the company don't want.

 

You also say the rules have been changed,

 

I'm sure I said that I think she is making up her own rules. I didn't say the company have changed the rules because I don't know that.

 

again are said before , are you sure the rules have been changed or are now just being applied as per company policy.

 

The old manager was a stickler for the rules, if the new managers rules were in force when he was there he would have had us working to them. He retired, and before he retired he was too close to his pension to risk being sacked for not following the rules.

 

I am sad to say that in my experience businesses do not like their employees to think or make a decision , just do what they are told.

 

Yes but I think We are being told to do the wrong thing. I think it is the manager who is doing the thinking and making up new rules and that the company wouldn't like it if they knew.

 

I do agree that asking 3 times could be considered overkill but certainly before xmas I shopped in BHS a few times and every time I paid I was asked if I wanted to apply for a store card.

 

I am not just talking about till staff, it's everybody who works on the shop floor. If you are stacking shelves and a customer asks you where a particular product is, you have to try and get them to take out a store card. It's if you ever speak to a customer, for any reason and no matter what your job is, you have to try 3 times to get them to take out a store card.

 

 

If however you feel that you have a grievance then I suggest that you follow your companies grievance procedure,

 

I can't do that yet, as I have no proof it is coming from her, other than a team leader saying it did.

[fletch70]

I am not going to get into this further apart from saying that you really do not know what knowledge the new manager has . I would say that everyone I know from a sales background knows you are target driven and as soon as you hit your target they want a bit more. (having spent 30 years in retail and sales I know a few)

 

I sense that you are very unhappy at the changes the new manager is making

 

TBH if you are unhappy with the instructions you can still raise a grievance or ask a more senior manager (than the supervisor) for some clarity.

[Conniff]

I can't do that yet, as I have no proof it is coming from her, other than a team leader saying it did.

Ask her, simples.

 

I'm sure I said that I think she is making up her own rules.

That's called enterprise, it will get her promotion.

[billathome65]

To offer the card is good practice. To push cards onto people when they don't want them is bullying and harassment and illegal and very bad for business . Plus it won't do the company many favors if you go peeing people off.

 

Can they dismiss? Your role is to service customers and as part of that there is a policy to offer cards. ( That's as far as your commitment goes. ) If the new manager is advocating pushing the cards onto people then thats her choice but to threaten dismissal no matter how covertly will get them on the wrong end of a lawsuit in my opinion.

 

Bill

[Geordie Joe]

I am not going to get into this further apart from saying that you really do not know what knowledge the new manager has . I would say that everyone I know from a sales background knows you are target driven and as soon as you hit your target they want a bit more. (having spent 30 years in retail and sales I know a few)

 

I sense that you are very unhappy at the changes the new manager is making

 

TBH if you are unhappy with the instructions you can still raise a grievance or ask a more senior manager (than the supervisor) for some clarity.

 

You are right, I don't know what knowledge she has, but I do know that this is her first managers role and I have seen the rookie mistakes she has made.

 

Everyone I know in retail knows about targets too, so why would they deliberately try to achieve nearly double what is expected of them. Knowing that if they achieve that then the target will be set even higher!

 

Yes I am unhappy at some of the changes she is making, but it's hard to complain to anyone higher up. If you ring HR at head office they just say "we don't get involved with that sort of thing, speak to your team leader".

 

The area manager visits the store no and again, but he won't speak to the staff, just says "go through your manager".

 

The whole system seems to be set up to stop staff complaining to anyone higher than there store manager.

[Geordie Joe]

Ask her, simples.

 

Not that simple, she keeps a team leader between what she says to staff. She tells the team leader and the team leader tells the staff. Other people have asked her about things and she just tells them to see their team leader. So if you were to complain you couldn't say "The manager said........" You would have to say "The team leader told me that the manager said....." And I'm sure in such a case the manager would say "The team leader has misunderstood and passed on the wrong instruction".

 

This leads me to believe she is wrong and knows she is wrong, so is making sure someone else gets the blame if there is a complaint.

 

That's called enterprise, it will get her promotion.

 

Not if she gets it wrong.

[Geordie Joe]

To offer the card is good practice. To push cards onto people when they don't want them is bullying and harassment and illegal and very bad for business . Plus it won't do the company many favors if you go peeing people off.

 

Exactly, I don't think the company would want that.

 

Can they dismiss? Your role is to service customers and as part of that there is a policy to offer cards. ( That's as far as your commitment goes. ) If the new manager is advocating pushing the cards onto people then thats her choice but to threaten dismissal no matter how covertly will get them on the wrong end of a lawsuit in my opinion.

 

Bill

 

Only if I prove it was her.

[Geordie Joe]

There's been a development.

 

Last week, Friday, I got sick and when the team leader said she was going going to write another report because I had not "offered" a store card to a customer, I turned on her. I told her straight that I would not be pushing store cards onto anyone, and told her why. I said that she could sack me, or I would leave, but if it comes to pushing store cards or not working here I will chose not working here.

 

Since then she has not, openly, done any reports on me and I have had no hassle at all.

 

So either they have

 

1. Given up

2. Been to busy to bother with me this week

3. Or are lulling me into a false sense of security and are going to hit me with something else when I'm not expecting it.

 

I have to admit that I spent the week expecting to be sacked at any moment, but nothing has been said at all.

 

I think, possibly, all the reporting was just a bluff to frighten people into pushing store cards harder. A big stick to waive over people's heads, but when I called their bluff and told them to hit me with it, they couldn't.

 

Well, either that or I'm going to get sacked!

[billathome65]

If your actions did not result in a formal discussion or disciplinary at the time it's unlikely to happen now.

 

I would advise as part of the company policy I assume they are working from that you say we are offering a store loyalty card would you like to take one at least you have then done your part and you are not then pushing cards onto people merely giving the customer the option to take one.

 

Bill

[SabreSheep]

If they are not going to action you because of this they may start looking for other means.

 

NOW would be a good time to join a trade union!!

[fletch70]

I would agree that a Union would be a good idea. From what you have written it does seem that you are catastrophising. You are expecting the worst possible outcome and over thinking it.

If the manager is trying to increase the store card take up which it seems she is , you have little idea of why. Has it been part of her brief when coming into the store-maybe it's one of her personal targets. In any event it matters little why she is doing it , it really is not up to you to question her intentions unless they break the law or a company policy. If you refuse to do what is reasonably asked of you then you are leaving yourself open to disciplinary action -not necessarily dismissal but retraining, a warning or something similar. These could lead to dismissal if you continue to disregard the reasonable requests . I would at this point also be re reading your companies disciplinary policy and the grievance policy.

Are there only two levels of management within the store i.e store manager and supervisor ?

Read the grievance policy and if thats the way you want to go follow it to the letter . Keep it formal and keep records .

 

No company wants people that are disruptive I am afraid. As I said before it may not be a system I believe in but there are times you really do need to be pragmatic and pick your battles. I would suggest that this is not one that you need to pick

[Geordie Joe]

I would agree that a Union would be a good idea. From what you have written it does seem that you are catastrophising. You are expecting the worst possible outcome and over thinking it.

 

If the manager is trying to increase the store card take up which it seems she is , you have little idea of why. Has it been part of her brief when coming into the store-maybe it's one of her personal targets. In any event it matters little why she is doing it ,

 

I know it matters little WHY she is doing it, what concerns me is HOW she is doing it.

 

it really is not up to you to question her intentions unless they break the law or a company policy.

 

Well I am sure pushing every customer 3 times to take out a store card is against company policy. It goes against all the literature I have from the company. Offering a customer a discount if they take out a store card is also against the rules.

 

If you refuse to do what is reasonably asked of you then you are leaving yourself open to disciplinary action -not necessarily dismissal but retraining, a warning or something similar.

 

That's the whole point, I do not think what is being asked of me is reasonable.

 

These could lead to dismissal if you continue to disregard the reasonable requests .

 

I do not believe they are reasonable, if you think they are reasonable could you please explain why you think that?

 

I would at this point also be re reading your companies disciplinary policy and the grievance policy.

Are there only two levels of management within the store i.e store manager and supervisor ?

 

There is also one asst. manager, but he's only been here a couple of weeks and only seems to stand and watch what is going on. Which in my opinion is a good thing.

 

Read the grievance policy and if thats the way you want to go follow it to the letter . Keep it formal and keep records .

 

That is the reason why I am here in the first place.

 

If you are right and pushing customer 3 time and offering them discounts is reasonable, and I make a complaint I am wrong.

 

If I am right and it is not reasonable, I have no proof it came from the manager.

 

No company wants people that are disruptive I am afraid. As I said before it may not be a system I believe in but there are times you really do need to be pragmatic and pick your battles. I would suggest that this is not one that you need to pick

 

Well thats your opinion, and you are entitled to it. But I don't believe you have read and understood what is happening, otherwise you wouldn't be telling me the exact opposite to what everyone else is. Of course, everyone else could be wrong and you could be right!

 

Now, please completely ignore all the above, it doesn't matter at all. All I want is two questions answered.

 

Question 1

Is there any law/rule/guideline/code that says an employer can't penalize an employee if they don't offer store cards?

 

Question 2

Is there any law/rule/guideline/code which says you can't offer a customer a discount on an item if they take out a store card there and then and use the card to pay for the item.

[SabreSheep]

1) No law saying they cannot peanalize an employee for filaing to carry out a reaosnable management instruction. (Reasonableness is tested in court as a band of reasonablmess based upon what others might do which nearly always is found in employers favour)

 

2) nothing outlawing this that I can think off. In fact I swear some places offer "sign up today and save £10 on your first store card payment"

[Sidewinder]

 

Question 1

Is there any law/rule/guideline/code that says an employer can't penalize an employee if they don't offer store cards?

 

Question 2

Is there any law/rule/guideline/code which says you can't offer a customer a discount on an item if they take out a store card there and then and use the card to pay for the item.

 

1. No - it would be covered under 'Failing to comply with a reasonable instruction' and as stated only a Tribunal could ultimately determine whether what is asked was being 'reasonable'

 

2. Nothing unlawful, but IS outlawed by the Finance and Leasing Association Lending Code - if your employer is a member (and I believe they are) then this Code is binding

 

See Page 34 http://www.fla.org.uk/main-data-content/files/2014/redirect/765gjtY/submo_776yietRWTREYYGUGIHI_87/FLA-Lending-Code-2012-REV-Oct-2014-ipdf-final-2.pdf

[fletch70]

Sabre, Sidewinder apparently I am no longer in a minority of 1 , there are three of us !

I couldn't have put it better myself.

 

I have not said that I agree with the instruction but it isn't up to employees to arbitrate as to what is reasonable .

 

I do think that a good idea would be to go to the assistant manager using the " I am a bit confused " approach and ask for some clarity. If you are not prepared to do that then I suggest you either take it on the chin and do as requested or move on.

 

May I ask if you have any ambition either within the company or outside the company , if you do, I learnt from bitter experience that it is much more likely to happen when you accept following instructions.