Problem with permit parking zone and council.

[Cherriesju]

Problem with permit parking zone and council. We live in an unadopted road and on our deeds the land up to the centre of the road is ours. Because we live close to a school we agred to give the council permission (in 2003) to introduce a permit parking scheme. This was in the hope that they would police it at relevant times (drop offf/pick up). This has never really happened.

 

Wardens do occasionally make an appearance but they won't confront parents in their cars and just hang around hoping their presence will be enough, then they go away and we don't see them at the relevant times for months on end. We have had to learn to live with this as, despite many letters from residents they say it will improve (but it doesn't) or they say they haven't got the manpower.

 

The bottom line is they are taking money for a service they can't or won't provide.

 

Now, however, they have gone too far. They sent out a letter in September stating that they would be putting a white line across drives and garages so preventing anyone parking there. Our garage fronts onto the road and we use that space as somewhere to park for visitors/extra car as a permit has never been needed there as it wasn't in the scheme.

 

We disputed it with the council and stated that they were expressly not to put such a marking across our garage which is on our land. They responded saying that the letter was to be passed to their legal team. To date we have not received a response to that letter.

 

Fast forward to Monday and I returned home to find a white line across my garage, effectively, removing a parking space from our house. As we have 3 cars that is a real problem because everyone else in the road also has a lot of cars and we all use the places outside our own houses as a courtesy to the neighbours.

 

Now they have stated that they may not have acted upon their rights (under traffic regs) to put lines there before but they have decided to do so now.

 

They have also said that we can't rescind our permissions or have any input to whether the lines/permit zone continues on our frontage as, even if we own it, and it is unadopted, they still have rights that trump ours.

 

We are taking this further but I wondered if anyone had any inside info re this kind of thing or personal experiences to relate?

[ericsbrother]

You invited the council to adopt the road. They did so. They can now do what they want as far as Traffic acts go.

If you think differently you need to look at the Order from 2003 and get your lawyer to see if it was adoption or not and if it wasnt make a formal complaint and if it rejected and go to the Local Government Ombudsman.

[Michael Browne]

I presume the white line is in front of a dropped kerb/crossover to your garage?

 

Two things immediately come to mind:

a) White lines are purely advisory. They are basically there to alert motorists that there is a driveway there.

b) A resident is allowed to block his own crossover as long as it's not a shared driveway, in fact so can anybody else as long as they have the permission of the resident ie visitors

 

As for rescinding permission for the permit scheme, since I presume this was originally agreed by all residents at the time, I would imagine you would need the same to rescind it.

[Michael Browne]

You invited the council to adopt the road. They did so. They can now do what they want as far as Traffic acts go.

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My understanding is that the council have not adopted the road, it still belongs to the residents, merely that they agreed for a permit scheme whilst still retaining ownership of the land.

[Cherriesju]

The council have not adopted the road, it remains unadopted.

 

However, we have bought permits to park in designated bays in the road but we do not have a permit for the car which we park on the garage. According to the council either any car parked there will need a permit or regardless of having a permit we cannot park there at all, the response depends on who you speak to.

 

The garage fronts straight onto the road and the "pavement" is maintained by us and the kerb is barely there. The line has been painted across the garage frontage on the road adjacent to the designated permit bays.

[Michael Browne]

The garage fronts straight onto the road and the "pavement" is maintained by us and the kerb is barely there. The line has been painted across the garage frontage on the road adjacent to the designated permit bays.

 

Now I'm confused. If there are designated bays ie bays marked out with white lines, but presumably there is not a marked bay across your driveway, you wouldn't be able to park there during restricted hours even with a permit.. So how is that taking away a parking space?

 

Outside restricted times you can still park there regardless of the new white line.

[Cherriesju]

It is hard to explain!

 

Outside our house, but still on our land and on our frontage, we have a permit parking bay. The bay did not/does not extend over the garage frontage and there was no white line there. This has been the case since 2003.

 

So, that space was available for parking by us/our visitors without a permit.

 

The council then gave notice that they were going to put white lines across drives and garages (we don't have a drive our garage is flat to the road) which means (according to parking services) we cannot use the space in front of it as a parking space either with or without a permit. Obbviously, anyone else parking there would be obstructing entry to our garage.

 

Even after being told in September that we did not agree to the white line being painted across the garage frontage I returned home on Monday to find they have painted one in.

We never agreed to the garage frontage being part of the scheme, nor did our neighbour across the road (on the adopted portion) they are also complaining but I feel that they have less right than we do as they do not own the land on which the markings have been made. We do.

 

Hope that helps clarify the situation? Thanks for your input.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Cherriesju

[Michael Browne]

 

So, that space was available for parking by us/our visitors without a permit.

Yes, but only outside of the restricted hours, during restricted hours you have to have a permit and park within a bay

 

(according to parking services) we cannot use the space in front of it as a parking space either with or without a permit.

Yes you and they can outside of the restricted hours, the new white line makes no difference,

 

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What's the location, then we can look on Streetview and see the situation clearly.. A picture is worth a thousand words

[Cherriesju]

What's the location, then we can look on Streetview and see the situation clearly.. A picture is worth a thousand words

 

I would rather not give my address details, sorry. I do appreciate your comments/input. though.

 

The restrictions did not apply to the space outside our garage as it wasn't included in the scheme. We were able to park there at any time and have done so without a permit since 2003. All we want is for this to continue, but the council say it isn't possible. As we never agreed to this, how can they arbitrarily do it?

 

The signage refers to permit parking in the " designated bays" and we have zoned permits which cover our own street and streets close by, then the zones change and we cannot park in the bays there. There is also a non permit, short stay (1 hour) bay on the opposite side of the street (the adopted side)

[Michael Browne]

I would rather not give my address details, sorry. I do appreciate your comments/input. though.

Just the street will do, it's not as if I'm goin' to come round yer 'ouse!

 

 

The restrictions did not apply to the space outside our garage as it wasn't included in the scheme. We were able to park there at any time and have done so without a permit since 2003.

This is what I don't understand. In a permit zone during the restricted hours you can only park within marked bays, so I don't understand how you could park across your drive outside of a bay.

 

The signage refers to permit parking in the " designated bays" and we have zoned permits which cover our own street and streets close by, then the zones change and we cannot park in the bays there. There is also a non permit, short stay (1 hour) bay on the opposite side of the street (the adopted side)

 

So does that mean one half of the road up to the middle of the carriageway is adopted (effectively public highway) and the other half is unadopted (and owned by the residents on that side)? That is very strange.

[Cherriesju]

Yes, on one side there is street lighting and pavements and on our side we maintain our own pavements and have no lighting. I think that portion was adopted when the school was built there.

 

It gets even stranger! The road ends up in a private road which effectively runs straight through the front gardens of the houses. So, they have house, garden, a strip of roadway allowing vehicle access through to the top of the lane and then more garden. It is a dead end with no through traffic.

[Michael Browne]

The TRO would be interesting to see.

 

If it's outside London, you should be able to find it here:

http://tro.parking-adjudication.gov.uk/default.aspx

 

Scroll down the list on the left for your council

[Michael Browne]

The restrictions did not apply to the space outside our garage as it wasn't included in the scheme. We were able to park there at any time and have done so without a permit since 2003.

This is what I don't understand. In a permit zone during the restricted hours you can only park within marked bays, so I don't understand how you could park across your drive outside of a bay.

You still haven't explained how you can park on a section of road outside of a bay and not need a permit

[Michael Browne]

The signage refers to permit parking in the " designated bays"

 

Being a cul-de-sac does that mean there is just signage at the entry to the street and no yellow lines or individual signs on each bay? (apart from the 1 hr bay perhaps)

[Cherriesju]

Being a cul-de-sac does that mean there is just signage at the entry to the street and no yellow lines or individual signs on each bay? (apart from the 1 hr bay perhaps)

 

Yes, just signage on the end of the street, and the 1 hour bay only.

[Michael Browne]

I'll try one more time.

 

There is a sign at the end of the street which says something to the effect 'permit holders only past this point in designated bays' and then the hours of restriction. That sign applies to the entire road.

 

Our garage fronts onto the road and we use that space as somewhere to park for visitors/extra car as a permit has never been needed there as it wasn't in the scheme.

 

How is it that the bit of road in front of your crossover is not part of the scheme.

[Cherriesju]

I'll try one more time.

 

There is a sign at the end of the street which says something to the effect 'permit holders only past this point in designated bays' and then the hours of restriction. That sign applies to the entire road.

 

 

 

How is it that the bit of road in front of your crossover is not part of the scheme.

 

The parking bay is marked and does not cover that section of the road. It has never covered that section of the road. It is not and never has been, a designated bay.

 

There have never been any road markings at all in front of the garage, but now there are.

[Michael Browne]

I know there is no marked bay in front of your garage. The whole point of a permit scheme is that during the restricted hours you can only park in marked bays. That means that you cannot park on sections of the road that isn't a marked bay and that would include the section in front of your garage. Otherwise it defeats the whole purpose of the permit scheme.

 

So what makes you think that scheme doesn't apply to the road in front of your garage?

[Cherriesju]

Because we have had a car parked there without being ticketed for 12 years?

Because we queried that before we agreed to allow the scheme to go ahead?

Because we own the land and did not give permission for that?

[Michael Browne]

Because we have had a car parked there without being ticketed for 12 years?

According to your post #1 they're not ticketing anyone else either.

 

Because we queried that before we agreed to allow the scheme to go ahead?

Querying is one thing. What was their response? Do you have any written undertaking that the council would exclude your garage frontage from the scheme?

 

Because we own the land and did not give permission for that?

Again do you have any written confirmation of giving your permission to implement the permit scheme with the exclusion of the garage frontage and the councils acknowledgement of that.

[Cherriesju]

Again do you have any written confirmation of giving your permission to implement the permit scheme with the exclusion of the garage frontage and the councils acknowledgement of that.

 

They are ticketing - mainly visitors to residents homes, or residents whose permits are obscured or who have a wheel over the bay. What they are not doing consistently is to ticket the regular offenders, the ones who are in their cars and waiting for children, the ones who dump ther cars and go and pick up children, the ones whom we agreed to the parking zoning to stop. In the area there were 935 tickets issued in one year, and 2.5 million taken in fines in the borough. So, I think that if they had had the remit to ticket my car when parked on the garage frontage they would indeed have done so. They haven't, not one ticket in all that time.

 

I don't have anything in writing, it is just what has happened over the years, however, nor do they have anything in writing, as according to their parking manager, the records have not survived.

[Michael Browne]

according to their parking manager, the records have not survived.

 

Although that's always possible, parking services basically just manage parking schemes once they come into existence, it's usually Highways who actually plan and implement schemes and draw up the TRO.

 

Did you look for the TRO?

 

If it's not in the TPT library, you should go to the Highways Dept and ask to see it, along with maps of the scheme. It's a public document and should be available to view on demand and without appointment, although it's best to phone first.

[Cherriesju]

Yes, there is TRO which seems to cover the whole street, but when the scheme was implemented everyone who had garages which fronted the street (and who had not excavated into their front gardens to pull a car off the road) still parked over their garages without a permit. This has happenend for the whole time the scheme has been in operation without tickets being issued - so 12 years.

 

In September the council wrote to residents to say they were changing this (so implicit in that is their acceptance that this had been the case) and that now they would be putting white lines over drives and garages to prevent parking.

 

It was at that point that I challenged them and expressly denied them permission to do that. They have gone ahead anyway, saying that they have always had the right to do it but never bothered. Technically, that may be true, but as residents it was not what we understood we had agreed to, and not what has happened for the first 12 years of the scheme. Even now, they have stated that if we give them the reg numbers of cars that will park there they will "try" to see that enforcement does not occur.

 

I am not happy with that as we have visitors, tradesmen etc and I do not want to have to contact them each time we want to use our own land to allow a vehicle known to us to park. Much easier for them to simply allow an exemption (if that is the process) or remove the line on the basis that we have refused them permission to put it there.

 

All we want is for the status quo to return. We have long since accepted that they rarely ticket those who the scheme was designed to prevent parking. They are simply not there at the relevant times, but, if we have a car parked there all day it is certain they will ticket that if they can.

[Michael Browne]

What's the exact wording on the sign at the end of the street?