Capital2coast PCN Lewes - Clamform received

[Trailboy]

Hi folks,

 

I too got a remote sensed ticket from this bunch for an alleged offence on 28 November 2014 at the same spot and the letter FCN was issued 23/12/2014. No ticket was issued at the time

 

We moved house so didn't get it until early January and the photograph places me mid manoeuvre at the side of Laura Ashley as I dropped my wife off to pick up something for her Mum.

 

I appealed the ticket thinking they were a bunch of chancers but I note in retrospect that their online appeal form has a check box for registered keeper or driver and I don't know which one was ticked.

 

We recently had a reply to our appeal dismissing it and showing other pictures of our 'offence' and they put the charge up to £100.00.

 

Are we able to send the following letter to get them off our backs?

 

' As Schedule 4 of the POFA 2012 has not been followed, then as registered keeper I am not liable for the charge.

Address all further correspondence to the driver of the vehicle at the time of event.

I am under no obligation to name the driver of the vehicle at the time of event.

No further correspondence will be entered into.

This has been sent with proof of postage. '

 

Get free proof of postage from post office and ignore all further begging letters you will receive..

 

Many thanks

 

TB

[ericsbrother]

Tell them that as they are not a memeber of an ATA they can get lost as PoFA doesnt apply to them.

 

Dont waste ink on anything else and be at least as blunt as this.

[Trailboy]

Thanks Ericsbrother, do you mean an accredited trade association? I know IPS isn't accredited but its an association.

 

 

I take it that also means I cannot cite the POFA argument?

 

 

Does anyone know about the parent company one parking ltd, seems the director of that has fingers in many parking pies.

 

 

thanks

[ericsbrother]

they are not a member of either the BPA or IPC. Therefore no PoFA so they can FO ditto parent company. see other thread here about them leaving both ATA's

[Trailboy]

Hi Ericsbrother and all,

 

 

Thanks for your posts, I know you saw my thread on MSE but that's not letting me log in now for some reason.

 

 

I popped back to the scene of the alleged parking incident and they have put up loads of signs now which are more noticeable than before.

 

However, just reading some other threads,

 

 

the offence allegedly took place on 28/11/2014 and the FCN addressed to my wife

(so they went straight to DVLA & no ticket issued at the time)

& not just the keeper was issued 23 December 2014.

 

 

Is this inside or outside the guidelines please,

 

 

I saw one that said 12 days plus a days postage time either side of it so 14 days

and another that was 29 to 59 days.

 

 

Also and I may be repeating myself,

 

 

we got the original letter and followed their appeal guidelines and appealed via their website,

 

 

I am concerned that it has led me to unknowingly incriminate myself along with appealing immediately

when this wasn't necessary due to timescale guidleines.

 

 

Many thanks

TB

[ericsbrother]

For an ANPR system it is 14 days after the day of the alleged event to get the letter to you.

 

 

It must be issued within 12 days and 2 days are allowed for service.

Therfore their NTK is timed out and they can aonly claim from the driver at the time

and they dont know who that was and no-one has to tell them.

 

If a ticket is slapped on the windscreen they have to allow 28 days for the driver to own up and then they can issue a NTK

and give them 28 days to pay up or appeal.

 

 

Again there is the service time so the keeper has to receive the notice between 29 and 56 days after the date of the event.

 

 

Before or after those times and the notice is non-compliant and therefore no keeper liability.

 

You have identified yourself as driver so they can claim from you but they can never claim form the keeper becuase

 

 

1) they are not a member of an ATA and

2) the NTK was non-compliant.

As they are ot a member of the BPA or IPC you cannot use the appeals process so they have to take you to court.

 

 

You can then argue that your appeal wasnt considered properly and they will lose.

 

 

However, that is not the only argument I would use.

[Trailboy]

Hi Ericsbrother,

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to respond and so quickly, much appreciated. Is the NTK an NTK even when it is addressed to the registered keeper or in the event they don't know the name of the keeper? Due to the nature of their appeal form, im not sure what we put but possibly responded in my wifes name as the letter was addressed to her, we certainly supplied them with her email address - iknow, I know!

 

 

Does that mean that they don't have a case as they issued too late, should we word something to them and say that?

 

 

Thanks again

 

 

TB

[ericsbrother]

they didnt send the letter in 14 days.

 

 

That is the end of it now stop trying to confuse the driver with the keeper

and thus confusing anyone else who is trying to follow this thread.

 

their claim is going nowhere so just forget about it.

 

 

Dont bother writing to them to point out their mistakes because they wont want to hear it.

[Nev Met]

Does any of the correspondence from the company make any reference whatsoever to the keeper being (potentially) liable?

 

(I'm looking at it from the DVLA angle here)

[Trailboy]

Hi Nev met & Erics Brother,

 

 

Thanks both for the advice and comments:

 

 

EB - OK, I will !!

 

 

NM - No I cannot see any reference to the keeper being liable on either original letter or subsequent appeal refusal (but ill double check original email on this)

 

 

thanks

 

 

TB

[ericsbrother]

Nev, I like your thinking but will the DVLA ever admit they are wrong in handing over the info or sanction C2C for telling porkies?

[Nev Met]

Nev, I like your thinking but will the DVLA ever admit they are wrong in handing over the info or sanction C2C for telling porkies?

 

It isn't so much to do with them being right or wrong. The generally held belief is that the only way that you can chase the Keeper is under PoFA. Therefore, irrespective of whether you actually mention PoFA, if you threaten the Keeper then you must be doing so under PoFA - that's the rationale.

 

Under PoFA one of the requirements is that the creditor (or creditor's agent) made an application to the SoS for the RK data and that the RK data was supplied by the SoS (SoS's agent being the DVLA of course). It must also be a separate request for each NtK. It follows therefore that if such an application wasn't actually made (and there are plenty of PPCs who like to recycle RK data or use company information from the livery of the vehicle etc) then they cannot seek to recover the alleged debt from the Keeper.

 

It is entirely reasonable therefore for every single RK who receives a NtK which either claims under PoFA or otherwise suggests keeper liability (in one form or another) to enquire of the DVLA whether or not the statutory requirement of paragraph 11 of PoFA was complied with.

 

Something along the lines of:-

 

The Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012 –

Paragraph 11

 

Name

Address

 

Date

 

Dear Sir,

 

As DVLA records will confirm, I am the registered keeper of a motor vehicle registration number................................

 

I recently received a postal Parking Charge Notice demand for a payment from a Private Parking Company.

 

The Notice makes reference to Sch 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (‘PoFA’) and ‘keeper liability’.

 

I understand that Paragraph 11 of PoFA makes it a statutory requirement for the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor) to have made an application for the keeper’s details to the Secretary of State

 

I therefore require the DVLA, acting on behalf of the SoS, to provide the following information.

 

1) Confirmation (or otherwise) that my data was requested and supplied in accordance with that statutory requirement.

2) The full details of the name and address of the requestor

3) The date of the request

4) The date that my personal details were given

5) The date of the alleged contravention specified by the requestor

6) The details of the alleged parking contravention.

7) The location of the alleged parking contravention

 

Regards

 

Registered Keeper

 

(DVLA email address for this enquiry [email protected])

[Trailboy]

Ok thanks Nev, this is the first ticket we have had on this car and first run in with C2C so no recycling of data internally or are you thinking they might have used another resource and not DVLA?

 

 

Thanks again for all your interest and support

 

 

TB

[Nev Met]

Ok thanks Nev, this is the first ticket we have had on this car and first run in with C2C so no recycling of data internally or are you thinking they might have used another resource and not DVLA?

 

 

Thanks again for all your interest and support

 

 

TB

 

 

I'm not really trying to second guess anything, there's no need to when the DVLA are patiently sitting there drumming their fingers and awaiting your enquiry so that they can tell you exactly what's gone on behind the scenes.

[Trailboy]

Hi Everyone,

 

Hope you are well.

 

 

Sorry for the delay, we appealed to the ICS and quelle surpise they have rejected the appeal again.

 

 

I'm happy to wait and see what happens but my wife would rather close the chapter and pay the fine.

 

 

Apparently we need to pay by today but is the fact that they issued their PCN notice late enough for things to be thrown out.

 

 

My wife has been corresponding with Gavin but hasn't disclosed who the driver was,

 

 

is this admissible evidence by the way as the driver was called Davy Jones or that is what he told me!.

 

What was the outcomer of the test case by the way that happened a couple of weeks ago, did the man win or something else.

 

 

Thanks for your attention once again, apologies if I am repeating things but rushed off feet.

 

 

Besat regards

 

 

TB

[Trailboy]

PS has anyone ever paid on credit card and then let the PCN issuer argue with them?

[dx100uk]

you don't pay

 

 

its not a fine

 

 

where does it say the word fine please

 

 

dx

[Trailboy]

Thanks DX, yes, I meant pay the invoice of course!!

[Trailboy]

Hi Everyone,

 

 

Update, I have just been informed that my wife lodged an appeal with IAS which they threw out with various comments but declined to comment on the fact that C2C didn't issue the NTK inside the allocated time frame. I have responded and asked them to reconsider based on this fact.

 

 

Is this enough to get the case thrown out should it escalate?

 

 

I would appreciate any advice from the collective as don't really want to give in to this daylight robbery. .

 

 

Many thanks

 

 

TB

[Cardiff Devil]

IAS are not independent, regardless of what they may claim. They're run by representatives of the IPC, so there's a massive conflict of interest there. Unlike POPLA who are mostly independent, it's not in IAS's interests to allow appeals as it's putting a massive dent in their revenue stream.

 

After IAS have thrown an appeal out they most likely won't reconsider, as it's not in their best interests to do so.

 

You can pretty much safely ignore them after this point, as you've done all you can be reasonably expected to do. It's extremely unlikely they'll take you to court.

[Trailboy]

Hi Cardiff Devil,

 

 

Ok thanks for your reply, that's appreciated. im still getting a bit confused with why we cant use POPLA, is it because C2C aren't affiliated to a bona fide prganisation and as a result the only option for them is to progress to court or not bother?

 

 

Many thanks

 

TB

[DragonFly1967]

BPA members use POPLA.

IPC members use the IAS.

 

Both are "supposed" to be independent, one even includes the word in its name. While neither of them are angels, the BPA/POPLA route does appear to be a lot more independent than the other (despite the name).

 

 

The use of the words "bona fide" when talking about a PPC, almost any PPC (or one of their "trade bodies") is giving them a lot more kudos than they deserve. Even 'recognised' trade body is stretching it a bit really

[Cardiff Devil]

Yes, exactly that. POPLA only adjudicate on appeals concerning parking companies who are members of the BPA. Since C2C are members of IPC, the other "boys club", they have IAS in place of POPLA. One of the provisions of the Protection of Freedoms act was that PPCs needed to be members of an accredited trade body and have an independent appeals process in place.

[Trailboy]

Hi Everyone,

I referred the PPC to their breach of guidelines by writing after the 14 days for an ANPR notification and that subsequent correspondence would be treated as harassment and got this in response - they don't know who the driver is though by the way:

You are referring to The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012(POFA), this is only if we wish to pursue the charge using POFA and keeper liability but we already know who the driver is and the debt has already been forwarded to a debt recovery specialist with further cots involved.

You will need to deal directly with them from now, I’m sure they will be in touch very soon.

Regards

Admin Department

Capital 2 Coast Parking Management

[Cardiff Devil]

OK so you may have inadvertently identified yourself as the driver in your initial appeal before you came on here for advice. It's not the end of the world though. Any debt collectors that may contact you have absolutely no special powers whatsoever, no matter how official and scary looking their correspondence may be. They'd have to take you to court first, and with C2C not being a member of any kind of trade body, this is extremely unlikely.

 

From here on, either ignore anything sent to you from C2C's pet debt collectors, or reply with a simple one-liner saying "The debt is denied, please refer this matter back to your client and do not contact me again." The only thing now that you need to be concerned about is anything headed "Letter before Action" or similar. If you get anything like that, come back here for further advice.