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nicfusc

PCN from CPM at my place of work. Questionable picture proof. - ** WON AT POPLA **

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Sorry for having to create a new thread. I know there is already a lot of great information out there already and I have read loads already but I need some fairly specific advice with this one.

 

So the story goes:

I took my Dads car to the office the other night. We have use of a car park that belongs to a bank that we sublet an office from. All thats required is a little paper permit that I have had sitting between my dash and windscreen for months now without any issues.

 

The other day my Dad sent me a text saying he had received a letter about a PCN being "overdue". He sent me a copy and I saw that the evidence pictures were really dark and hard to make out. So I logged in to the website to see the rest of their evidence.

 

Looking through the pictures I can see that they are all taken in the dark using a flash that has done nothing except illuminate the reg plate in to a incomprehensible blurred mess. Cant even read the reg. There is one picture on the whole windscreen that if I up the exposure, I can just about see the permit in the bottom of the drivers side windscreen but obviously I cant see any details. The rest of the pictures of the dash and windscreen are all taken pointed away from where the permit is...

 

So what should I do from here? Send an appeal letter with the photo that I upped the exposure on and suggest that perhaps the Parking Official didn't see the permit in the dark? Or is there a standard appeal letter I should send first?

 

Thanks in advance for any advice given.

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Am I allowed to post the photos on here or is that a bad idea? The windscreen one has no personal details on it, but it would help to show my issue.

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By all means post any pictures up - PDF is best - remembering to remove all personal identifiers including barcodes.


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You say 'the other night ' and ' the other day '.

 

What are the dates of the parking event and the letter through the post?

 

If photos were taken of the car windscreen, then a ticket should have been stuck to the car... ? (NTD)

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If the parking co is relying on the impossibility of putting a ticket on the car then they have 12 days after the event to issue a demand to the keeper of the vehicle plus 2 days to deliver the letter so basically your dad should have got the demand within 14 days. If after this time then they are timed out to claim anything from the keeper of the vehicle and the burden of proof lies with them.

If a ticket was slapped on the car then they can send a notice to keeper between 29 and 56 days after the event, not beofe or after those days otherwise again there is no keeper liability.

So, we need to know the date of the event, the dates letters were sent and what they say. Do they invite the keeper to name the driver within 28 days or under the PoFA there will be keeper liability? Does the demand name the site, the supposed breach, the name of the company that the contract is supposedly with and have a list of methods of payment and a business address that is not a PO Box and methods of appealing the charge including mentioning the right to go to an independednt decision maker if the company do not accept your appeal. The letter and the signage shoudl contain the name of the Trade association that runs their appeals service so BPA or IAS membership.

Any letter lacking the above is non compliant and no keeper liability.

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The photos do show a notice attached to the windscreen but it wasn't there when I got on the car. The car park is located next to a pub so someone could how found it funny to remove it and I have no evidence of foul play by the parking company.

 

The date of the letter says the 8th of January. With the issue date being the 28th November. However the letter was received on Wednesday the 14th of Jan.

 

I will put together a pdf of the pics and post it up.

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It is a common practice for the parking companies to photograph something attached to the vehicle and then remove it as then, when they send a NTK it is apparently compliant with the later dates and you get timed out for driver discount. Sad gits arent they?

Right, if you want to take the matter into your hands you need your father to name you as the dirver at the time so they have to acknowledge you. Inside the same envelope justr state that a permit was displayed for parking there and provide a photocopy of it. State that it was displayed correctly but as it was dark you believe that their operative may not have seen it but that is not your problem, no breach of any contract between your company and the principal occurred.

This last bit will screw them as they wont have a contract that allows them to override the agreement between your firm and the bank. Their contract wont include your spot as by default, it belongs to your company. they might want to think otherwise but they would be foolish to tell a judge that.

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Here is a PDF of the letters and evidence photos.

 

Page 4 is a over-exposed copy of the photo in Page 5 where I have circled the permit.

 

Sorry for the rubbish quality of the letters as the methods my Father used weren't the greatest. I will get better ones if need be.

 

Thanks again for all the advice so far. Should I get my Dad to send them my details and name me as the driver?

 

[ATTACH]55543[/ATTACH]

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They havent got a hope in hell of you paying that charge. It is very easy to contest it and win.


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

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If you are happy to take this on then yes, you appeal to the company as the driver of the vehicle at the time and say that there has been no breach of contract as the permit was displayed in the agreed manner and send a copy of the photo if you feel like it pointing out the permit and saying that the operative appears to have tried to avoid photographing that area of the windscreen so they may well have not seen it, which is not a breach by you but a dereliction of duty by them. Point out that the ticket diplayed on the screen wasnt present when you returned to your vehicle and say that you have anecdotal evidence of some parking companies attaching items purporting to be charge notices to vehicles and then removing them to avoid having to offer the discount during the relevant period. You are sure that this isnt the case here but in any case you are going to copy this appeal to the BPA so they are aware that the notice to keeper was the first that you or the keeper knew about the supposed charge and they can add it to their knowledge base in case anyone else has complained of the same.

Do send a copy of the appeal to the BPA, you wont even get an acknowledgement most likely, but it will add to the mass of evidence that shows that their members are not fit to do their job.

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So I got a reply.

 

They have sent me a letter saying that the photographic evidence shows that my permit was not displayed. I have attached the rejection letter with personal info removed.

 

Should I go through to POPLA?

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]55782[/ATTACH]

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Of course you should. PPC's are just cowboy clampers using a different name.

 

Appeal to popla using GPEOL and say goodbye to these parasites.


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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Yes, that will cost them mpney and they will lose.

Your arguments should be

1) supremacy of contract. Your employer has rented the space from the principal (bank) so any agreement between the bank and the parking company does not cover this parking space. Therefore you want to see the contract between your employer as occupier of this land and the parking co that assigns the rights to make claims in their own name as you do not believe that one exists.

2)As the parking company has no contract with your employer there cannot be a breach of contract.

3) the permit, as a convenience to show the right to ocupy your employer's property was displayed so even if there was a contract that covered this land, no breach of contract occurred. (attach copy of rubbish picture they use as evidence)

4) No loss has been caused by your actions so there can be no claim for damages and the sum demanded cannot be a true reflection of the parking companies losses caused by your parking in your own parking space.

 

POPLA will undoubtedly find for you on one of these points and wont consider the others. Let us know in the fullness of time which point it was as they are supposed to start at the top and work down but they usually look at 1) or 4)

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POPLA UPDATE:

 

I won the appeal!

 

Thanks for all the help guys!

  • Haha 1

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Well done you! And to everyone who helped you.

 

Thank you for reporting back, I'll amend your thread title. :)

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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what did the letter say? Did the parking co actually offer any evidence or give up and save themselves a few quid.

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what did the letter say? Did the parking co actually offer any evidence or give up and save themselves a few quid.

 

The company produced no evidence so I only won by default. Still glad to have it sorted though.

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Quite common, they dont like to show that they have questionable contracts and if they were made public anyone who paid up could sue them for recovery of their payment as being a misrepresentation. The buggers should be done for fraud but that will never happen.

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I have received a letter of "Impending Court Action" after the POPLA decision has been made. Should I respond to them or notify POPLA?

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Classic!

 

Don't inform anyone of anything. You've got your letter from POPLA which is binding on the PPC. Now let them go to all the expense of issuing proceedings if they want to. You've got an absolutely watertight defence.


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Would it be worth while copying the letter (just) to popla as further evidence of misconduct?


I express my honestly held opinions - they are nothing more or less than that.

... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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Personally, I'd wait and see what they do.

 

If they really are stupid enough to start court proceedings, I'd be complaining to the court, POPLA and the BPA, and might even look to take them to court myself for harassment.

 

 

At the moment, I'm sure that they'd just claim that the POPLA decision (in the inbox) and the letter threatening court action had 'crossed in the post' or words to that effect. Might as well wait for them to dig their own grave before throwing them in wink.png


We could use your help

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

 

 

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.

 

If I've helped you at all, please feel free to click on the little star under my posts and leave feedback :)

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Who have you received the letter from?


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Impending means nothing, just another vague threat by a chancer. You can happily ignore them, the horse they rode in on and the colonel who sent them. It would be a very bad day at the office for them if they did issue a claim, the evidence they (didnt) offer POPLA would be all that is required.

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