Can City Permits Ltd issue a 'PENALTY Charge Notice" - on private land??

[victimnomore]

On Sunday 21 December 2014, I visited friends in Leeds. I parked, as suggested by my friend, in the courtyard of the block of flats in which he lives (ie private land).

 

On returning to the car (roughly 60 to 90 minutes later), I found a note stuck to the windscreen. The note was a reasonable facsimile of a parking ticket - a yellow and black plasstic envelope containing a form headed "Penalty Charge Notice" - but issued by a private firm (City Permits) on private land.

 

I admit that the car was parked on private land without authorisation, but there was plenty of space as there were very few cars there at the time and, in my judgement, no obstruction or damage was caused.

 

The form states,

"The penalty charge of £85 is payable within 28 days of this notice. A discounted sum of £60 wil be accepted in settlement of the charge if received within 14 days fromm the date of issues (sic)."

 

There are the usual threats of tracking me down through the DVLA and court action if the charge remains unpaid.

 

A slight complication is the fact that the car was on hire from a local car hire company with whom I would like to keep a good relationship.

 

Advice as to how to deal with this, would be very much appreciiated.

[dx100uk]

it cant be a penalty charge notice

if its on private land

 

 

dx

[Old Snowy]

As dx100uk suggests if the ticket you've received includes the word "penalty"

then any claim they may have is dead in the water.

 

 

Given that the company uses the same wording on their website http://www.citypermits.co.uk/faqs/

 

 

then there's every chance that that is so.

 

 

The website is extremely thin on details but the company has been around for a while - one wonders on what basis?

 

As the company is not a member of either of the two currently approved trade associations (which is required to obtain DVLA data)

- i.e. the BPA or the IPC then they should not be able to obtain registered keeper details in order to pursue you.

 

 

The use of the word "penalty" makes it clear that the issuer is "trying it on"

- no private company or individual can impose a penalty and even if it were purportedly a charge in consequence of a breach of contract/

a contractual fee or by way of damages in trespass the use of the "p" word does for any civil claim.

 

With all that in mind and as this whole thing can only depend on those who respond to windscreen ticket

I suggest that the OP does precisely nothing - and certainly does not pay.

[f16]

Was there a sign at the entrance to the car park ???

Can you get photos of the signs at the entrance and within the car park ????

 

You need to post them up on here.

Min size 450mm X 450mm

 

At the moment if above post is correct and this lot are not members of BPA or IPC then I don't see how they can obtain your details.

[dx100uk]

thanks for the insight

 

 

dx

[f16]

Just been on their "Web Site" !!!! You have got to be kidding me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

"Bunch of Chancers"

[f16]

Going on their web site "solutions" page makes very interesting reading !!!!!

 

I feel this is going to be a very " fun packed Thread "

Looks like the whole thing is run on a "shoe string".

 

Need the sign sizes and if there is one at the entrance readable from the drivers seat as you enter !!!

[Old Snowy]

Going on their web site "solutions" page makes very interesting reading !!!!!

 

I feel this is going to be a very " fun packed Thread "

Looks like the whole thing is run on a "shoe string".

 

Need the sign sizes and if there is one at the entrance readable from the drivers seat as you enter !!!

The popcorn is on order and I've plumped up the cushions.

 

Seeing what this company has already put on its website its signs should be a sight to behold. Its sounds as they might be used to dealing with customers who don't understand their rights and they've been around for a while. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?339821-held-in-a-private-carpark-against-my-will-by-citypermits. They've been using the "Penalty Charge Notice" wording on their website for at least 2 years. Sounds to me like its time someone took a soggy bite from their rear-end.

[armadillo71]

This is the first time I've heard of this PPC.

 

Looking at your links Old Snowy, I am flabbergasted!

 

The website is quite astonishing really. But not belonging to an ATA,they have no Code Of Practice to follow...

 

They obviously rely on people responding to the NTD, as they have no access to the DVLA.

 

The OP should make NO contact with City Permits Ltd in my opinion.

[victimnomore]

Many many thanks to those who have responded so far. Sage advice!

 

I don't live near Leeds, so I can't go and photograph the car park entrance or any notices, I'm afraid.

 

Here are some screenshots from Google StreetView which might help.

 

The car park entrance ...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]55114[/ATTACH]

 

The sign to the right of the entrance ..

[ATTACH=CONFIG]55115[/ATTACH]

 

 

Inside the car park - yellow lines indicate where I was parked

[ATTACH=CONFIG]55116[/ATTACH]

 

And the notices inside ..

[ATTACH=CONFIG]55117[/ATTACH]

 

You will notice that the signs inside are white lettering on a red background. However, the shot from outside shows the notices as blue letterig onn a white background. I don't know which pictures are more up-to-date. Assuming the bricks are standard sizes, the signs do appear to be about the right size - but I doubt if any driver is able to read all the 'small-print'.

[honeybee13]

In case this is taken further, has someone got screenshots of the penalty charge notice wording on their website? If they get wind of this thread, they might change it.

 

HB

[silverfox1961]

An interesting case thie. I wonder if they are following the 'Proserve' route by stating to the DVLA that they are after trespassers instead of parking enforcement in which case, the paper application 'may' be allowed. IF that is the case, the DVLA should be informed. FOI anyone?

 

If, on the other hand, they are relying on the driver contacting them then I would be tempted to ignore them as they are not members of the ATA's

 

One issue that may bite is if they do get the keeper details, will the car hire pay up and charge the driver or just pass on the drivers details to the PPC.

[citizenkain]

one thing,the op says it was a hire car,would the hire company add the so called penalty charge to his bill if they were contacted by the parking company?,heard some of them do that.

[silverfox1961]

After a little checking, City permits Ltd is directed by Mr Nigel Aston but he is also a director of Northern Parking Management with the same registered address. There is another director at NPM, Russell Hancock.

 

Both companies are registered at companies house (different numbers)and NPM has a larger balance sheet than CPL. In fact, based on the low amount in the latters accounts (June 2013) I wonder if they will be around for much longer.

 

NPM has no website that I can find and is also not registered with any ATA.

[DBC]

"parking enforcement agency". Are they trying to pretend they are somehow connected to the government?

[Billy's mate]

In the " About " section on their website, it says that they " Work with the DVLA....blah...blah.....to obtain the keepers details ". The whole website makes interesting reading, but their repeated use of the phrase " Penalty Charge " won't get them very far in Law.

[Mr.P]

has someone got screenshots of the penalty charge notice wording on their website?

 

Scraped the web site and attached for future reference.

[havinastella]

Scraped the web site and attached for future reference.

 

Great work Mr P

[Old Snowy]

City Permits have never appeared in any DVLA listing that I am aware of. FOI on its way.

[invmatt]

Used to have a friend who lived in there and yes they're very much quick to pounce. I also live just opposite and City Permits Ltd also operate in here.

 

In short ignore them as they won't take action. Had a few off of them in the past for failing to display my permit and a few friends who've visited have also received them and nothing has happened.

 

Here's the same warning notice they use in our car park:

 

[renegadeimp]

They cant clamp or tow wither. Both have been illegal for years.

[ericsbrother]

the red sign does not fulfil the requirements of the PoFA. Therefore no keeper liability can be claimed so a sharp response to that effect to them and a complaint about misuse of the DPA to the DVLA for handing over the keeper details copied to the ICO.

The real problem we all face is that most people will just pay up thining this is a fine and then moan to the local paper, who will report it as being so unfair but the wont publish the facts about the unlwaful nature of the signage and supposed contract.

[victimnomore]

Once again, sincere thanks to you all for your responses. So much wise and helpful advice.

 

I'm most tempted by Old Snowy's advice to do "precisely nothing - and certainly does not pay". That's exactly what I'd do - if it were not for the fact that it was a hire car.

 

So today I telephoned the car hire company, and asked what their policy would be if City Permits contacted them. I'm pleased to say that they would not pay the "ticket" and then recover the money from me. They would, however, give City Permits my details so they could contact me, and charge me an "administration fee" of £25. So, obviously I would rather not imvolve them.

 

I've read the interesting points about whether or not City Permits can get the vehicle owner's name through the DVLA, and what to do if they do so unlawfully. While this is all good advice, I'm afraid it isn't relevant in this case. Tracing the car owner should be easy enough for them to do - the car (of which they have a photo) has large stckers proclaiming the hire company's name on the boot and on both front doors!! Add to that the fact that it is a small local company, and it would be no more than a five minute job for them to get my details.

 

So perhaps I should be pre-emptive?

 

Should I write to City Permits and tell them that, as a private company operating on private land, it is unlawful for them to issue a "Penalty Charge Notce", and therefore illegal for them to pursue payment for it, and that I now consider the matter closed and will not discuss the matter further?

 

I think that should keep the hire company out of it, shouldn't it?

 

Any advice?

[Old Snowy]

I've had the respose to my FOI to DVLA for City Permits. They have made no applications for registered keeper details since October 2012 (and just to make sure a trick was not being missed they haven't had any applications refused either). Unless they are using some other route to obtain RK details (NPC or one of the managing agents perhaps?) then this is unalloyed bullsh*t.

 

Clamping and towing for cumulative unpaid tickets? I think not. Perhaps someone should suggest they research what happened to NCP and one of their minions who clamped a car in pursuit of unpaid PCN's? That's aside from any offence they may commit under the provisions of POFA or s.21 Theft Act 1968.

 

In any event on the basis of their being unable to obtain DVLA data the advice has got to be: Ignore their PCN's - their only means of obtaining RK details will be from those who respond to tickets.

[victimnomore]

Thanks again Old Snowy.

 

However, as I say above, the DVLA issue is a bit of a red herring in this case because, to find the vehicle owner, they only need to look at the photo that they say they took - the name of the car hire company (a small local company operating from one location) is on large stickers on each side of the car and on the boot.