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    • I suggest you start reading around this forum about the steps involved in taking a small claim in the County Court. It's very straightforward but you should understand the steps before embarking on it so that you are confident. We will help you all the way. Once you have done this basic reading then come back here and we can begin the process if you are happy to go ahead. On the basis of what you say, I expect that your chances are better than 90%. I also expect that West Cheshire Facilities Management will want to put their hands up before it goes to court and get a judgement against them. We would want to see your letter of claim before it sent off but I suggest that it is made clear that Social Security's have already been informed and that when you get a judgement against West Cheshire Facilities Management, you will make sure that social services and the health service generally are all circulated with copies of the judgement. If West Cheshire Facilities Management really want to take that risk with all of the reputational and business risk that accompanies it, then they are being extremely shortsighted.
    • So who cleaned it and are they prepared to give a report of the state of the place as they found it?
    • Yes, it has been cleaned now - it had to be, he came out of hospital at the end of December, and Friend has secured the services of a local cleaning company to come in once a week.  
    • Following the issue of a Liability Order the Council must obtain a warrant of control to try to collect the debt. If they fail their only option is to return the matter to court and you will be asked to attend.   At that hearing the court must be satisfied that:   • A liability order was imposed in relation to the debt. • You have failed to pay; and • The council tried to collect the sum using a warrant of control, and failed.   They must then go on to conduct a "means enquiry" into your financial circumstances. The principle aim of that is firstly to establish whether you had demonstrated either a wilful refusal to pay (i.e. you had sufficient funds but simply refused to pay) or "culpable neglect" (i.e. you had the funds but chose to spend them on something else). Only if they find one of those two can commitment to prison (either immediate or postponed) be considered. Also, only if they find one of those two can they order payments to meet the debt. The usual combination is an order to make payments coupled with a postponed commitment. But, the payment rate must be realistic in terms of your financial circumstances and it should normally mean that the debt is paid within three years. If a realistic payment rate will not see the debt paid in that period then the court should consider remitting (i.e. writing off) some or all of the debt. Similarly, if they find neither wilful refusal to pay nor culpable neglect (and by default find that you simply did not have the ability to pay) they should also consider remitting some or all of the debt.   You should note that at these commitment proceedings, as the matters you face could result in custody, you are entitled to have the services of the duty solicitor. In your circumstances I would say the chances of you being committed to prison are slightly less than zero. From your very brief description of your finances you simply have no spare money (though a means enquiry will delve more deeply into your affairs, especially the debts for which the DWP are making deductions from your benefits). There is no point in delaying any of this. The sooner it gets sorted the better as your circumstances seem unlikely to change any time soon. One thing you must bear in mind is that these proceedings will only deal with the debt covered by the Liability Order. If you have any Council Tax arrears that have accrued since then they will have to be dealt with separately. I'm also assuming you live in England. Since April 2019 commitment to prison has not been an option in Wales.    
    • good issued the default after you turned 50 when any payment is not longer required on the loans and they should be written off.   it's fast becoming clear that they solely refused your SLC forms as a mode of deferring to create this whole falsehood.   the case your refer to about the new forms is detailed in this form in many SLC erudio threads.   if you could go get a USB converter lead to make your old HDD drives readable from amazon or somewhere , cheap as chips and <£5.
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    • I sent in the bailiffs to the BBC. They collected £350. It made me smile.
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    • Hi @BankFodder
      Sorry for only updating you now, but after your guidance with submitting the claim it was pretty straight forward and I didn't want to unnecessarily waste your time. Especially with this guide you wrote here, so many thanks for that
      So I issued the claim on day 15 and they requested more time to respond.
      They took until the last day to respond and denied the claim, unsurprisingly saying my contract was with Packlink and not with them.
       
      I opted for mediation, and it played out very similarly to other people's experiences.
       
      In the first call I outlined my case, and I referred to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 as the reason to why I do in fact have a contract with them. 
       
      In the second call the mediator came back with an offer of the full amount of the phone and postage £146.93, but not the court costs. I said I was not willing to accept this and the mediator came across as a bit irritated that I would not accept this and said I should be flexible. I insisted that the law was on my side and I was willing to take them to court. The mediator went back to Hermes with what I said.
       
      In the third call the mediator said that they would offer the full amount. However, he said that Hermes still thought that I should have taken the case against Packlink instead, and that they would try to recover the court costs themselves from Packlink.
       
      To be fair to them, if Packlink wasn't based in Spain I would've made the claim against them instead. But since they are overseas and the law lets me take action against Hermes directly, it's the best way of trying to recover the money.
       
      So this is a great win. Thank you so much for your help and all of the resources available on this site. It has helped me so much especially as someone who does not know anything about making money claims.
       
      Many thanks, stay safe and have a good Christmas!
       
       
        • Thanks
    • Hermes and mediation hints. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428981-hermes-and-mediation-hints/&do=findComment&comment=5080003
      • 1 reply
    • Natwest Bank Transfer Fraud Call HMRC Please help. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428951-natwest-bank-transfer-fraud-call-hmrc-please-help/&do=findComment&comment=5079786
      • 33 replies

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hi i am 56 years of age with poor health .. i have never been in trouble with the police before and have not stole anything till yesterday .

 

however i would like to explain i paid for a pair of earring a week ago from tk max when i went to put xmass paper on them there was only one in the box there was 2 i think when the lady at till opened it one must have come out so i went to c/s in the store they would not change them .so i thought what the hell so i went over to the earring and took a new pair out off the box and put them in my pocket i looked at over thinks there i also went over to the gloves and picked a pair up i was going to pay for them ...i walk about for a bit and could feel my breathing getting bad and i needed to sit down and use my in haler ..

 

the one seat was out side the store so i sat down for a few min about 5 when i went to go back in the store 4 security were all around me they told me i had stolen 2pairs off earring 1 neckless and did not say any thing about the gloves .. i was taken to an office was told on the way not to go into my pockets i explained about the earrings and i told them about the gloves hes was going mad at me shouting tell me they have me on Cramer taking other things i showed them the rearing that i had taken he went in and out telling me they are going to call the police...

 

i was thinking all type of things and he was getting mad at me as i would not give him the other thing 's he said i had . he called the police they came and searched me and checked my bag ..i did not have what he had said i had taken he was going in and out off the room to wear i had been and walked as i must have dumped them ???

 

i was given a police fine £90 one o the other men told i was banded for life and give me a pice of paper notice of intended civil recovery what dose this mean they got the things back and can sell them again i have been up all night i am so up set at my self so i called a friend this morning she told me that the charge what they like i have paid the fine £90 .....and earring were £!4 the gloves £24 please tell what i should do help thank you

Edited by citizenB
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Hi and welcome to CAG. I have taken the liberty of moving your post to a thread of its own. Give me a few minutes whil I put some spacing in then I will be back.

If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

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Right. I apologise for editing your post in the way I have done but it does make it easier to read for the others when they see this.

 

You will receive a letter from a company called Retail Loss Prevention. (RLP) They will make all sorts of claims that you are liable for the fixed amount they will charge you. This is untrue.

 

Just by having a full read of the thread I moved this thread from you will see just how much power they have over you. NONE!

 

You will receive quite a few letters from RLP before getting more letters from a debt collector. these have as much power over you as I do. NONE!

 

After that it will go very quiet.

 

You have paid the penalty for your actions which is right in my opinion so for now the best advice I could give you is to ignore the letters from RLP no matter how harassing the seem. Put this behind you as much as you can.

If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

Please help CAG. Order this ebook. Now available on Amazon. Please click HERE

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Now you have found this thread, I will go and remove the other post you made on the other thread.

 

Please try not to get stressed out.

 

There is also another option you could try but not what I could recommend but I include it as some had had success.

 

As a 56 year old and in poor health, I would consider you vulnerable and as such RLP haave a duty to treat you sympathetically. You could write and explain how your health affected your decisions on that day.

 

Again, not a move I would recommend but I do have to include all options for you.

If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

Please help CAG. Order this ebook. Now available on Amazon. Please click HERE

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I would agree with silverfox. Completely ignore RLP . You will get ever increasing harassment letters from this sham of a company, and then theyll try and get a DCA involved. Ignore everything both companies say and do ( except in the extremely unlikely event you get a claim form). The police have already punished you, so thats the end of the matter. ALso understand that RLP seem to think they exist in conjunction with or above the law. They dont. They are a private company that exist to make a profit.

 

So in short: IGNORE THEM

Edited by rebel11
Site Team regrets reducing the font size, takes away from advice given.

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

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Cagger since

Dec 2014

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2

Theft from TKMAXX. Paid police fine

hi i am 56 years of age with poor health ..

 

 

i have never been in trouble with the police before and have not stole anything till yesterday .

 

 

however i would like to explain

i paid for a pair of earrings a week ago from tk maxx

when i went to put xmas paper on them there was only one in the box

there was 2 i think when the lady at till opened it one must have come out

 

 

i went to c/s in the store they would not change them .

so i thought what the hell so i went over to the earrings and took a new pair out off the box

and put them in my pocket

 

 

i looked at over thinks there i also went over to the gloves and picked a pair up i was going to pay for them

 

 

...i walk about for a bit and could feel my breathing getting bad

and i needed to sit down and use my in haler ..

the one seat was out side the store so i sat down for a few min about 5

 

 

when i went to go back in the store 4 security were all around me

they told me i had stolen 2pairs off earring 1 neckless and did not say any thing about the gloves .

. i was taken to an office was told on the way not to go into my pockets

 

 

i explained about the earrings and i told them about the gloves

hes was going mad at me shouting tell me they have me on Camera taking other things

i showed them the earring that i had taken

 

 

he went in and out telling me they are going to call the police.

 

 

.. i was thinking all type of things and

he was getting mad at me as i would not give him the other thing 's he said i had .

 

 

he called the police

they came and searched me and checked my bag

..i did not have what he had said i had taken

he was going in and out off the room to where i had been and walked as i must have dumped them ???

 

 

i was given a police fine £90

 

 

one of the other men told i was banned for life and gave me a pice of paper

notice of intended civil recovery

 

 

what does this mean

they got the things back and can sell them again

 

 

i have been up all night

i am so upset at myself

 

 

i called a friend this morning

she told me that the charge what they like i have paid the fine £90 ...

..and earring were £!4 the gloves £24

 

 

please tell what i should do help thank you

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For a start,

TK Maxx need to get a grip on their security staff.

 

 

Reading through what you have said, this incident raises a number of questions about TK Maxx's practices

where alleged shoplifters are concerned.

 

 

I am surprised the police tried on the Fixed Penalty Notice and you fell for it.

 

 

The law is very clear in that you are innocent until proven guilty.

It is not for the police to set themselves up as judge, jury and executioner.

 

 

Especially where alleged theft is involved.

 

 

Did they try the "If you disagree, you can argue it out in court?" number. If they did, this is totally unlawful.

 

If TK Maxx has recovered the earrings and gloves in saleable condition,

they are entitled to diddley-squat in the way of civil recovery costs.

 

 

You cannot claim for costs you have allegedly incurred as the result of your employees

behaving like a troop of marauding baboons.

It's like finding someone has damaged your car and then someone pulls up behind you

and you blame them when, in fact, they are completely without blame.

 

The fact you suffered an asthma attack is relevant.

 

 

What inhaler do you take, please?

 

 

Also, which police force is involved?

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Thank you for the message .

 

 

. The police told me i would have to pay or i would have to go to the police cells and court

and as i have never been this stupid or done any thing like this before .

i did not wish to go to the police station .

....t/valley police

 

 

....the police also told me if i did not pay it would go up in price and i would be arrested

the police were nice to me

they asked if i had the other things

i told them no

they even told me not to listen to the security guy

he was still shouting about me taking other things which i did not take

 

 

he went out 5 or 6 time

he brought in empty small box's and said she has other things

2 earring and a neckless which i did look at and take out off the box

and put back in box

 

 

there was nothing wrong with the gloves or the earring

they were put back in the box which they were in

they would not let me even tell why i had taken them

and told the police to check me again

they only searched me the once..

 

 

. They also checked my name and birthday and year

at first i gave them the wrong year by which i did not mean to do

they burned a c/d and gave to the police also .

 

 

.i have to say i did use my inhaler a lot i was panicking..

.they let me sit out side the shop as they said to see if i was going to come back

they asked if i need a first aider as well

 

 

when i was on my way back in to the store 4 of them were around me this a/t was very mild for me .

..it was over what i had done i have 3 inhalers ventolin brown one and red

can not think of the names at the mo

 

 

i also take a lot of pills for my c/o/d and asthma

i all have other health problems i still have not sleep ed well at all

 

 

been up from 4 to day istill very up set

my husband keeps asking me if iam ok

i have not told him what i have done..

 

 

. Iam so upset i just dont know what to do

i dont have a lot of money

my friend paid the fine for me

and i will pay her back 10 a month

 

 

i only get 400 a month d/a /l which dose not go far

 

 

i have not worked for 4 years due to health problems

and have spend my savings long ago

 

 

i just dont know how i will pay the fine on the notice

i dont know what to do at all

 

 

sorry to go on hope you can under stand

this my spelling is not good as i had a stroke last year

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After reading your latest post, I am not entirely convinced Thames Valley Police has acted in accordance with the law. The behaviour of TK Maxx's security staff is unacceptable.

 

I have noted that you have COPD and are on a number of broncho-dilator drugs, including Ventolin. These contain steroids which can have side-effects in a small number of cases. I have also noted that you have suffered a stroke in the last 12 months. I do know from experience of family members suffering strokes that such incidents can affect a person's cognitive functions. This can have a bearing on a person's behaviour in their everyday life.

 

You need to seek professional legal advice about this incident as I am not entirely convinced TK Maxx's security staff have acted lawfully - evidenced by the goon who kept going in and out of the holding room and claiming you had taken other things, but could not evidence this - and the police officer who attended should not have allowed themselves to be ordered around by someone whom, I suspect, has little in the way of training in law or police procedure.

 

There is, additionally, the matter of whether your rights under Article 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998 were upheld. I can see little in the way of evidence that they were. Under Article 6, you are presumed innocent until proven guilty before a court of law and entitled to access legal advice at public expense, if need be. Was this forthcoming in your case? No. It is evident that the police officer presumed guilt and issued what I suspect is a Fixed Penalty Notice which they should not have done. Did the officer, at any time, tell you that if you did not agree with the ticket, you could argue it out in court? If they did, this is unlawful in accordance with Section 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998.

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hi i did what i did as i was annoted with them as per my first post.....

. as soon as the girl at customer service told me there was nothing she could do about the earring

maybe i should have not told her ....thats fine i will just go and take a pair .

 

 

...i also take prednislone which is a steroids

 

 

as i say i know this did not make me do this as i have been on these for years

but thank's for the thought. and it also their word against mine .

 

 

..iam only worried about the r.l p notice

they gave me whether i have to pay it as i say i can not .

 

 

..i have been looking on here all morning and reading the post about them

people say don't pay and don't respond to them and they go away

 

 

what if they send them guys

can not think what they are called and take things from the house ...

 

 

. has the in law changed as a lot of the post were a few years old

and there are know ends of whether they had to go to court

but on the page on here the r lp show the cost goes up

 

 

do you know of any thats not paid them

 

 

thank you

 

 

hi also just read the police notice its a fixed penalty

and it only says that i stole one pair of earring and not the gloves ????

Edited by stupid lady
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Rlp can't touch you. Ignore everything they send completely. Their letters are best used as emergency toilet paper.

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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Renegadeimp has imparted wise words, SL. You have, essentially, been deprived of your unalienable rights to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. And, as previously alluded, I am not entirely convinced there is a case to answer against you. I am speaking as someone who is a retired policeman and now a Lay Advocate and McKenzie Friend. You would do well to seek professional legal advice given the actions of Thames Valley Police and TK Maxx. I am not at all convinced they have acted entirely within the law.

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thank you for the link to the cab i have read it all iam not very good with computers .... also something on here say things been moved ???and the things likes stickky thread

Edited by stupid lady
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All this talk of depriving of human rights is nonsense.You have 21 days to either pay it or challenge it. If you challenge it, the CPS will decide whether or not to prosecute you. If there isn't a lot of evidence against you they may decide it's not worth the hassle and just let the matter rest.You should use the 21 days to take legal advice on the "realistic prospect of a conviction" should the CPS decide to prosecute you.

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All this talk of depriving of human rights is nonsense.You have 21 days to either pay it or challenge it. If you challenge it, the CPS will decide whether or not to prosecute you. If there isn't a lot of evidence against you they may decide it's not worth the hassle and just let the matter rest.You should use the 21 days to take legal advice on the "realistic prospect of a conviction" should the CPS decide to prosecute you.

 

Really? Perhaps it is you who needs to go on a crash course in the finer points of the law.

 

FPNs work on a presumption of guilt which is totally contrary to Article 6, Human Rights Act 1998 (UK) and European Convention on Human Rights (International Law). Notwithstanding International Law supersedes domestic law, if the police have reasonable cause to believe an offence has been committed, let them take the matter before a court and let the court decide whether an offence has been committed. It does not give them or the CPS the right to say, "Well, if you disagree, challenge it."

 

The police, CPS and government are breaking the law with FPNs and well they know it.

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Really? Perhaps it is you who needs to go on a crash course in the finer points of the law.

 

FPNs work on a presumption of guilt which is totally contrary to Article 6, Human Rights Act 1998 (UK) and European Convention on Human Rights (International Law). Notwithstanding International Law supersedes domestic law, if the police have reasonable cause to believe an offence has been committed, let them take the matter before a court and let the court decide whether an offence has been committed. It does not give them or the CPS the right to say, "Well, if you disagree, challenge it."

 

The police, CPS and government are breaking the law with FPNs and well they know it.

 

Rubbish.

An FPN is offered as an alternative to court, and doesn't have to be accepted / paid.

The recipient of an FPN can go to court by not paying it.

Paying it accepts guilt, but that is an action by the recipient : receiving one and inaction by the recipient leads to the case going to the CPS +\- court, so the presumption of innocence remains unaffected.

 

I presume FPN's came in after you retired from a police service (were they still 'forces' then?)

Even so, they likely had police cautions then, as an alternative to prosecution?

Were you ever involved in one of them? If so, how do they differ in principle to an FPN, or do you believe they too "do away with the presumption of innocence"?

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That's the theory. The practice is somewhat different.

 

I have come across cases where alleged offenders have been coerced by police officers into accepting them and threats of heavier fines or imprisonment if the alleged offender goes to court or challenges what the police officer alleges.

 

Unfortunately, our basic human rights have been and are being eroded by successive governments following a pretty nasty agenda. I have discussed the matter of FPNs with a number of legal professionals who hold the view that FPNs are not acceptable where alleged criminal acts are concerned and the manner in which they are handed out and enforced is contrary to ECHR.

 

We are all entitled to our individual opinions and I respect your opinion.

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That's the theory. The practice is somewhat different.

 

I have come across cases where alleged offenders have been coerced by police officers into accepting them and threats of heavier fines or imprisonment if the alleged offender goes to court or challenges what the police officer alleges.

 

Unfortunately, our basic human rights have been and are being eroded by successive governments following a pretty nasty agenda. I have discussed the matter of FPNs with a number of legal professionals who hold the view that FPNs are not acceptable where alleged criminal acts are concerned and the manner in which they are handed out and enforced is contrary to ECHR.

 

We are all entitled to our individual opinions and I respect your opinion.

 

So, since you have evaded my (not unreasonable?) question:

 

Why do FPN's differ from police cautions (in respect of: )

a) "presumption of innocence", and

b) Article 6 of the HRA,

just to clarify if you are saying police cautions are acceptable in these regards while you are saying FPN's aren't.

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I was in the police when PACE came into force (That's showing my age!).

 

I can remember at the time the Police Caution first came in, a number of concerns were voiced about it by serving officers at the time. In fact, there were a number of aspects of PACE serving officers voiced concerns about, but the government of the day did their usual and ignored such concerns.

 

I am "old school" and a lot of officers, including inspectors and above, took the view if someone was arrested for an offence, they should be put before a court and it should be either a stipendiary magistrate (now called a District Judge or a Deputy District Judge) or Justices of the Peace (JP) who decided a person's innocence or guilt. Privately, a number of supervisory officers of inspector and above I served with felt it was wrong to place the responsibility for determining a person's guilt on a police officer and that the proper venue for determining a person's guilt or innocence was a court of law, not a police station. There were also concerns about a wedge being driven between the police and the public. After all, the police rely heavily on the public to help them detect crime and bring those who have committed serious crimes to justice.

 

Having said this, I have heard currently serving officers voicing similar concerns to those I heard being voice in 1984. They have witnessed colleagues handing out FPNs under very questionable circumstances. Also, there is the question of officers acting in the heat of the moment, acting out of malice and error.

 

There is a saying that if you give the police powers, they will abuse them. They have abused their powers and are abusing them. ACPO has been behind a lot of the more questionable measures introduced over the past 20 or so years and the fact they are under investigation over a number of matters does not exactly instil confidence.

 

To answer your question, I do not agree with police cautions and have not said I agree with them in this thread and neither do I agree with FPNs. If a person has committed an offence, then they should be put in front of a court and it should be for a judge or JPs to decide whether a person is guilty of an offence or not. Cautions and FPNs have too much scope for abuse by rogue officers. The courts and Article 6 of ECHR/HRA are the safety measure in the justice system to prevent abuse.

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You are missing the point of a police caution/FPN.

 

If you know you are guilty, it is a plea bargain, an offer to accept a lesser sentence and avoid having to appear in court, which would incur a heavier sentence/fine, along with the cost/victim surcharge. It also wont appear in the local newspaper.

 

If you are innocent, you can refuse the caution or not pay the FPN. You can then have your day in court. Or if you know you are guilty, you can do the same and roll the dice in court.

 

The police do not decide your guilt or innocence. Either YOU accept the caution/pay the FPN and in effect plead guilty, or YOU go to court and have it decided there.

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You are missing the point of a police caution/FPN.

 

If you know you are guilty, it is a plea bargain, an offer to accept a lesser sentence and avoid having to appear in court, which would incur a heavier sentence/fine, along with the cost/victim surcharge. It also wont appear in the local newspaper.

 

If you are innocent, you can refuse the caution or not pay the FPN. You can then have your day in court. Or if you know you are guilty, you can do the same and roll the dice in court.

 

The police do not decide your guilt or innocence. Either YOU accept the caution/pay the FPN and in effect plead guilty, or YOU go to court and have it decided there.

 

Tell you what... why don't you explain the legal basis behind what you're saying and where it fits in with compliance with ECHR/HRA? Plea bargaining is a very dangerous practice and wide open to abuse.

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