HELP! XMAS Claim from CABOT / WRIGHT HASSALL CLAIM for old EGG Card

[dx100uk]

until/unless they send a SIGNED AGREEMENT

 

 

they can post you what they like

the claim is going nowhere.

[dx100uk]

cant you use a mobile phone camera or digital camera

[gforce2k]

until/unless they send a SIGNED AGREEMENT

 

 

they can post you what they like

the claim is going nowhere.

 

Thanks dx,

Is there any legal basis/ process for me to try to have the claim struck out given the lack of a signed agreement? Any application or unless order?

Thanks gf

[dx100uk]

speculative claim

you called their bluff

 

 

not sure if things are diff as this is over the small claims limit mind?

 

 

dx

[gforce2k]

speculative claim

you called their bluff

 

not sure if things are diff as this is over the small claims limit mind?

 

dx

 

thanks dx

 

is there anyone you can think of on here that might be able to answer if it is different as it's over small claims and now fast track?

 

gf

 

cant you use a mobile phone camera or digital camera

 

will try this today

 

until/unless they send a SIGNED AGREEMENT

 

 

they can post you what they like

the claim is going nowhere.

 

is that the end of any defence if a signed agreement is produced?

 

my concern is allowing this to carry on with the albeit unlikely prospect of one being produced but it still being a vague possibility.

 

If it's at all likely would the best course of action be to:

 

- make whatever offer I can

OR

- to try somehow to strike this out as one has not been produced yet (and before one is)? (not sure possible?)

 

BTW this doesn't show up on my credit file at all, isn't that a strong indication that it is statute barred?

 

they say a payment was made march 2009

but that's based on reconstituted Egg statements,

a company which no longer exists.

 

 

I've had no statements since 2006.

[dx100uk]

andy I'm sure will pop in.

 

 

dx

[AndyOrch]

It also states that my last payment was early 2009

 

Do they state an amount? Source?

[gforce2k]

It also states that my last payment was early 2009

 

Do they state an amount? Source?

 

The only 'proof' is the Egg statement I've never seen before which shows the following:

 

OPENING BALANCE £**,****.**

** Mar 2009 DCA PAYMENT - THANK YOU GB -£60.00

CLOSING BALANCE £**,****.** (minus the 60)

Minimum payment due £*,****.**

(minimum payment plus any arrears)

 

So amount yes but no mention of exact company/DCA name.

[AndyOrch]

So try to trace this back...could you have made a payment to a DCA ? who was the debt with at that date ? Does the amount ring bells £60...what was your usual payments amounts ....how does it compare in comparison to normal payments?

 

All you attention should now be focused on this payment and whether it is in fact true or not...may be the difference of statute barred or not.

[gforce2k]

So try to trace this back...could you have made a payment to a DCA ? who was the debt with at that date ? Does the amount ring bells £60...what was your usual payments amounts ....how does it compare in comparison to normal payments?

 

All you attention should now be focused on this payment and whether it is in fact true or not...may be the difference of statute barred or not.

 

Thanks Andy, haven't found it yet but checking back on my accounts this evening.

If I can't find it can I ask them for proof?

 

Also, back to me earlier query, is there any difference in the way this claim may be handled given that it is above the Small Claims limit,

 

 

for example is the lack of a Signed Agreement for this pre-2007 account fatal to their claim or not?

If yes, is there some some way to bring these proceedings to an early close i.e. an unless order or application i can make?

 

If we were to assuming worst case:

not statute barred & signed agreement provided,

would I be best served settling or do i still have room to defend?

 

My worry is the costs added

if I lose which makes me wonder if i should at least contact them re a potential settlement,

or will it just serve to highlight my case over and above others?

 

cheers

 

gf

[gforce2k]

Apologies for silly question but exactly how much importance should i place on this account not being on any credit file?

i've checked noddle/checkmyfile/ukcreditratings - nothing

[dx100uk]

usually old data and good

but ideally you should check Experian and Equifax.

 

 

sadly there is nothing 'concrete' you can use by it not showing

it could have been defaulted more than 6yrs ago

so has been removed

that happens regardless to any payments or not

and the det cant return even if you do pay after that date.

 

so , you could have paid after the defaulted date

that evidence will vanish with the account removal.

[citizenB]

Apologies for silly question but exactly how much importance should i place on this account not being on any credit file?

i've checked noddle/checkmyfile/ukcreditratings - nothing

 

If they were reporting previously, and it is now not being reported then the 6 years from default date has been reached and it has fallen off your files.

 

I see they are claiming a payment was made in 2009, in which case, if they were reporting to the CRA, that payment should have been recorded.

 

Yes, indeed you can ask them to provide proof that it was you who made that payment - how it was made.. eg, by bank credit, bank transfer, postal order, cheque, etc.

[citizenB]

Do you know if there were any charges on the account prior to the assignment to the DCA ? What date was the account assigned to Cabot ?

[citizenB]

What was the date of your last payment? - to the OC May/June 2006 (can check exact date if needed)

- to the DCA not sure either late 2008 or very early 2009

 

Looks like last paid Feb 2009 to ARC but I never had an noa from them.

So OC more than 6 years and ARC less than 6 years but with no NOA.

Is the lack of NOA significant?

 

I see in your first post you advise that the account was assigned "Late 2009" so a Payment to DCA on the March 2009 statement looks iffy, yes ?

[dx100uk]

no signed CCA is fatal on any claim if the 'debt' is covered by the CCA and is prior to Apr 2007 and not signed up for 'on-line'

 

 

this is worthy to note as this is an EGG card they had online sign up from I think 2003-4 or earlier.

 

 

dx

[gforce2k]

usually old data and good

but ideally you should check Experian and Equifax.

 

thanks dx,

have now checked experian too, still nothing so definitely off my file.

 

sadly there is nothing 'concrete' you can use by it not showing

it could have been defaulted more than 6yrs ago

so has been removed

that happens regardless to any payments or not

and the det cant return even if you do pay after that date.

 

just to clarify the debt can't return to the credit file even if a payment is made?

 

so , you could have paid after the defaulted date

that evidence will vanish with the account removal.

 

so grounds to request proof?

should I print off the redacted credit reports to show the lack of the account or would that be a waste of time?

[dx100uk]

it can never comeback once it drops off.

 

 

for get the cra file , its of no use sadly.

 

 

 

 

cb says it really - Yes, indeed you can ask them to provide proof that it was you who made that payment - how it was made.. eg, by bank credit, bank transfer, postal order, cheque, etc.

[AndyOrch]

Also, back to me earlier query, is there any difference in the way this claim may be handled given that it is above the small claims limit,

 

No great difference apart from disclosure and directions and you finance your own mediation if opted for.... but you are not protected from costs...so in FT cases the costs can sometimes be more that the debt amount claimed....just something you should be aware of.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[gforce2k]

If they were reporting previously, and it is now not being reported then the 6 years from default date has been reached and it has fallen off your files.

 

I see they are claiming a payment was made in 2009, in which case, if they were reporting to the CRA, that payment should have been recorded.

 

Yes, indeed you can ask them to provide proof that it was you who made that payment - how it was made.. eg, by bank credit, bank transfer, postal order, cheque, etc.

 

Thanks CB,

Should i demand this proof now before completing the AQ or at the next stage using a legal application/order or put them to proof as part of a revised defence?

If now should I send the request to them and copy the court? and is there any CCA obligation or other legal terminology I can quote to demand this proof?

 

Cheers,

gf

 

Do you know if there were any charges on the account prior to the assignment to the DCA ? What date was the account assigned to Cabot ?

 

Yes, there were charges usually £20 a pop, trouble is I don't have all the statements.

I'm sure I sent them a SAR but worth doing again to be sure?

 

The date of assignment was Oct 2009

 

I see in your first post you advise that the account was assigned "Late 2009" so a Payment to DCA on the March 2009 statement looks iffy, yes ?

 

Yes Oct 2009 which is way after the purported payment so definitely want proof.

Is there any legal requirement/ terminology I should use to force them to provide this?

 

no signed CCA is fatal on any claim if the 'debt' is covered by the CCA and is prior to Apr 2007 and not signed up for 'on-line'

 

 

this is worthy to note as this is an EGG card they had online sign up from I think 2003-4 or earlier.

 

 

dx

 

I think the application was online and statements/account view certainly was but the terms had to be signed in hardcopy.

 

it can never comeback once it drops off.

 

for get the cra file , its of no use sadly.

 

cb says it really - Yes, indeed you can ask them to provide proof that it was you who made that payment - how it was made.. eg, by bank credit, bank transfer, postal order, cheque, etc.

 

Thanks again dx,

i've already asked CB but perhaps you would know,

 

 

is there any legal requirement I should quote or terminology i should use to demand this proof from them?

 

And should i do this now before the AQ which is due at the end of the month or afterwards using a legal application/order,

request for disclosure or put them to proof as part of a revised defence?

 

If now just a letter to WH copied to the court or to Cabot or?

 

cheers,

gf2k

 

Also, back to me earlier query, is there any difference in the way this claim may be handled given that it is above the small claims limit,

 

No great difference apart from disclosure and directions and you finance your own mediation if opted for.... but you are not protected from costs...so in FT cases the costs can sometimes be more that the debt amount claimed....just something you should be aware of.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Thanks Andy, that's my biggest worry, costs like that would be disastrous.

 

Right now it looks positive with the lack of a signed agreement & possible statute barring if the Mar 2009 payment is not proven,

but if either or both turn up I imagine that will mean the end for my defence and any chance at settlement?

 

Is there no way I can force production of these now with a deadline after which I can legally file for the claim to be struck out

as being frivolous/un-supported/statute barred?

 

i probably will opt for Mediation if this goes to the next stage,

I understand if nothing else it shows a willingness to attempt resolution out of court and may help to reduce potential costs?

 

BTW They did charge unwanted/unasked for PPI at the start of the account, would that be something I can use as well?

 

cheers,

gf

[gforce2k]

Hi,

I've been ready for some time now to send a Full Data Subject Access Request to the DCA that has claimed against me for a Pre-2007 Credit Card

but I'm worried that as the debt is arguably statute barred, not admitted (I have put a defence in) and a settlement is around the corner it may do more harm than good.

 

I'm reluctant to sign their suggested Tomlin Order,

especially with their strict conditions and the Full & Final figure we have agreed is the entire original balance c£14k,

they've just waived the £6k of insurance they were claiming on top,

so if there is any chance I can establish what they have (signed agreement etc.) I would prefer to take it.

 

However I have three main worries:

 

1. Sending a SAR will inadvertantly admit liability for the debt?
   
2. The DCA will try to misuse the £10 payment to revivify the account and use that to win at court?
   
3. On receipt the DCA will advise their solicitor to pull out of Settlement negotiations?
   

 

Could anyone tell me if these are legitimate worries or if I have a way to word it to avoid these pitfalls?

 

Given that it takes 40 days to get a SAR response I have once last opportunity to issue this before having to choose between the Tomlin Order

or running the gauntlet at Court, I have a feeling they don't have what they need to win but I'm not sure.

 

I'm also concerned that signing the Tomlin Order will admit liability/deny me any chance of going back to court if need be

and essentially tie me inextricably to the debt in a way that currently is arguable and that the DCA would have to go to court to prove.

 

Can anyone help me decide or have any advice as to risks and wording with either option?

 

Thanks,

GF

[dx100uk]

why are you thinking you need to send a DCA an SAR?

 

 

why are you thinking you need to sign a tomlin order or come to a settlement?

 

 

they have no signed CCA

the debt you have contended is statute barred

they have produced nothing to state or claim otherwise?

 

 

the claim is currently stayed?

 

 

next move is theirs not yours...

pay the fee mr fleecing DCA and try your luck...

on your speculative claim hoping for a non defenced default rubbestamped judgement...

 

 

dx

[gforce2k]

why are you thinking you need to send a DCA an SAR?

Hi Dx, I thought I should send C@bot a SAR even at this late stage to be doubly sure of what they have, i.e. any signed agreement, so that I can make the best estimate of how strong their case really is, but you seem to be saying it's inappropriate to a DCA/unnecessary?

- Is this because legally they should have disclosed everything?

- Do they have to tell me if I ask them point blank in a call/email?

- lastly, just for future reference does a SAR in some way admit libility?

 

why are you thinking you need to sign a tomlin order or come to a settlement?

Mainly worry at the downside I suppose and the paranoia that they may be sitting on something. They have been very reluctant to consider/discuss settlement/reduce expectations from the start, have acted like they have a strong case and not really chased me etc. all of which surprised me given that costs can go both ways in Fast Track.

 

I keep telling myself it's just bluffing/workload but with a potential CCJ/costs it made me worry enough to consider settlement as a 'safer option'.

 

I can't pay a lump at the level they want hence ending up with the Tomlin Order option, I know it basically hands everything to them on a silver platter and involves years of payments but I need to be more sure of my footing or the weakness of theirs before calling their bluff. I'll have to be really sure lack of signed agreement is enough before pulling out of settlement.

- Again, if only for future reference does a Tomlin Order admit the debt/liability?

 

they have no signed CCA

Nothing they have provided so far but does that mean they don't have anything now?

The only CCA/terms I received were back at the start if the year when C@bot posted docs in reply to my CCA 1974 request.

 

No signed terms were included, C@bot provided what they called a 'reconstituted true copy' of the agreement, which they said 'for the avoidance of doubt complies with the Consumer Credit (Cancellation of Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 and therefore complies with the obligations set out in section (77-78) of the CCA 1974.'

 

The pack was basically copies of what €gg had sent C@bot in response to their request for docs.

The 1st letter from €gg to C@bot stated that unfortunately they could not locate all of the docs requested, instead including two Card statements, a Notice of Default Sums (NODS) and a Notice of Sums in Arrears (NOSA)

- both the NODS & NOSA were not included in the docs I received just two statements I'd never seen before.

The 2nd letter fronted 25 pages of Terms and stated that it enclosed a copy of the original CCA, a copy of the Original Terms & Conditions and a copy of the current Terms & Conditions

- my pack included two sets of Terms, both unsigned, one with multiple terms/APRs for different years and the other with highlighted sections of text inserted with my name and address, the APR %, different Interest % and a total Cost of Credit amount - are these in any way usable in court (e.g. if they argue online application?)?

 

the debt you have contended is statute barred

It's arguably statute barred but it all depends on a Judge's take on the bogus payments mentioned in the reconstituted €gg Statements that bring the debt just within the last 6 years at the time of the claim. If they don't stand then the debt was Statute Barred and the claim was brought out of time by a month, if a Judge decides the statements/payments are real then the opposite.

 

It's irritating that they are trying to push this under the wire, even if accepting those last payments the 6 years would now be expired by over 4 months if they hadn't brought the claim...

- I'll argue the payments but not sure how best to do so with any real chance of success - anything I can do to disprove/undermine them before court?

 

they have produced nothing to state or claim otherwise?

They only stated the last payment date mentioned in the €gg statements, no other proof.

 

the claim is currently stayed?

Again very unclear, it has been stayed on a month by month basis and another request was in when transferred but no further Order despite chasing and emails etc.

I've done more than required to ensure an extension while I decide my options, had copious notes added in conversations to the court/sent email requests and reminders all in good time, it should be stayed for the next 3-4 weeks but the court is so behind they can't give me a definitive, only that it's out with the Judge for directions...

 

Wr1ght Hass@ll's last email was saying it was unlikely that a stay would be granted and pushing for the Income & Expenditure form hopefully they are just trying to bully me into signing the TO.

 

next move is theirs not yours...

pay the fee mr fleecing DCA and try your luck...

on your speculative claim hoping for a non defenced default rubbestamped judgement...

dx

I really hope you're right and sorry to bang on but with the risk of costs on what they deem to be a £20k+ debt (including their questionable interest) and a CCJ are making my very cautious/a touch paranoid.

 

As I say I've had no other Terms from Wr1ght Hass@ll or C@bot but I just want to be sure that:

a) if what they sent in the pack is all they have and if it is, that it is definitely not enough (they seem to think they have a strong case, I need to be sure if I am to call their bluff/reject settlement)

b) that they don't have anything else they are sitting on that they can later produce in Court, i.e. a signed agreement

 

Thanks agin for your help.

Cheers,

 

GF

[dx100uk]

War & peace size msg is not needed

 

Next move is theirs and they are obv going nowhere

 

Stop worrying its now 8mts down the line already

Speaks volumes

 

Speculative claim you called their bluff

 

DX

[gforce2k]

Hi Dx/all,

Since my last (over lengthy) post I've sat tight, touching base with the court on occasion but no contact with WH or Cabot.

Nothing from them except an email chasing the Tomlin Order which I ignored.

 

Then a few days ago I finally had an Order through from the Court, surprisingly not Allocation etc. but possibly good tidings for me.

 

The District Judge has ordered:

1) a 30min CMC (parties to attend) be listed for 2 months from now (not sure what this is or what to prep if I attend?)

2) Claimant to provide to court and Defendant (me) by end Sept:

- The loan agreement (does this mean a signed agreement?)

- The assignment to the Claimant

- Evidence of payments made to the account by Claimant in the last 6 years

(will they have to provide proper proof or just some dodgy reconstituted Statement?)

 

This was 10 days ago,

since then nothing from WH in writing (email or letter) which seems odd,

however they have called twice in recent days asking me to call back urgently.

 

I'm hoping this means they don't have the docs and I can request the claim be Struck out when they miss the deadline

- that being the case I haven't called back but I can't help but worry if I should find out what they want rather than be in limbo.

 

Why call twice without a chase up email or letter if it's urgent?

All I can think of is that they want to have an off record chat.

 

It occurs to me if they don't have what the Judge needs (which seems likely)

they could just be calling to try to bully me into signing the TO

or force some similar/poss reduced settlement?

OR

Is it at all possible that they could have something but just be trying to get hold of me to give me a final chance

to settle before they have to meet the deadline?

 

I've spoken to them supposedly "Without Prejudice" in the past but there's always the worry that this isn't as confidential

as they make out and they will try to use it against me in court

- is a WP telcon safe enough for me to discuss the above or is it an unnecessary risk?

 

Any thoughts/advice welcome.

Thanks,

 

GF

 

Forgot to mention but have before that the 6 years ran out months ago, in my view Statute Barred but they argue not