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I've received an appointment letter from Ingeus which gives the usual date and time of appointment but underneath has the following:-

 

"Your activities for your next appointment are:

Please attend appointment to review your work related activity, alongside providing evidence of job application. During your appointment you will undertake job application activity providing documentary evidence of vacancies applied for during this time."

 

 

I am aware I am under obligation to provide my job centre adviser with said documentary evidence of job applications each fortnight to be paid my JSA, which I do, but do Ingeus have a right to ask me for the same "documentary evidence" that I provide my job centre adviser each fortnight? Am I under any obligation to provide this "documentary evidence" to Ingeus?

 

Also, at a previous appointment with Ingeus I had a face to face interview with an Ingeus adviser who spent their time typing up what I was saying on the computer, I could see her typing notes into boxes on screen under my name and I was wondering if I have a right to see what is being typed into these boxes?

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Yes , you can issue a SAR request to see all available data that they have on you at Ingeus...

And I would assume yes, But then again , is it that much to print out some application emails. ??

 

Reed send emails advising when youve applied for a job and to me that satisfies proof :)

 

We could do with some help from you.

 

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No, it's no big deal to print off application emails but what I am saying is that I already provide my evidence to my job centre adviser each fortnight when I sign for my JSA, technically that satisfies my proof of looking for work so I shouldn't need to do the same with Ingeus as they don't pay my JSA while I am looking for work.

 

I'm assuming they want to see evidence of the jobs I apply for so they can claim credit and the cash when I do find work?

 

Perhaps someone can enlighten me if perhaps Ingeus would inform the job centre if I don't agree to provide them with "documentary evidence" and the job centre can sanction me for failing to provide Ingeus with "documentary evidence" which I already provide to the job centre each fortnight! :)

 

Basically -

 

1. Am I under obligation to provide Ingeus with said "documentary evidence", the very same documentary evidence that I provide my job centre adviser each fortnight?

 

2. If I refrain from providing Ingeus with said "documentary evidence", the very same documentary evidence that I provide my job centre adviser each fortnight can the job centre actually sanction me for "not providing Ingeus with documentary evidence" that they themselves already see on a fortnightly basis? :)

Edited by TG70
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Probably they would advise JCP and attempt a sanction. I wouldndt risk it myself but some do and may not have an issue with that haha :)

I can understand why you are questioning this, personally Ive never had to use Igneus... But idiots they are! :)

 

Id take them along JIC, you never know.

 

We could do with some help from you.

 

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I'm assuming they want to see evidence of the jobs I apply for so they can claim credit and the cash when I do find work?

 

That would be the primary reason.

 

1. Am I under obligation to provide Ingeus with said "documentary evidence", the very same documentary evidence that I provide my job centre adviser each fortnight?

 

If an Ingeus "adviser" mandates you to provide the information, then I'm afraid you have one of two choices:

  • Provide said information - Redact any confidential information if you need to.
  • Tell them "No." and incur a sanction.

2. If I refrain from providing Ingeus with said "documentary evidence", the very same documentary evidence that I provide my job centre adviser each fortnight can the job centre actually sanction me for "not providing Ingeus with documentary evidence" that they themselves already see on a fortnightly basis? :)

Had the same "issue" with A4e a few years back - Went in with the intention of pushing all the wrong buttons, and got a hissy fit (recorded for posterity) plus two benefit doubts raised. Did them absolutely no good at all as I had ceased to claim JSA before going in to that meeting.

 

You can indeed insist on seeing all notes that the "adviser" types up. If they won't show you the screen or provide print outs on the day, you send a SAR to the DWP requesting all information held by them and all subcontractors including Ingeus. It will take anything up to 40 calender days to get the information back, and any errors/omissions will need to be chased up via the DWP under the threat of reporting them [DWP & Ingeus] to the ICO.

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No, it's no big deal to print off application emails but what I am saying is that I already provide my evidence to my job centre adviser each fortnight when I sign for my JSA, technically that satisfies my proof of looking for work so I shouldn't need to do the same with Ingeus as they don't pay my JSA while I am looking for work.

 

I'm assuming they want to see evidence of the jobs I apply for so they can claim credit and the cash when I do find work?

 

Perhaps someone can enlighten me if perhaps Ingeus would inform the job centre if I don't agree to provide them with "documentary evidence" and the job centre can sanction me for failing to provide Ingeus with "documentary evidence" which I already provide to the job centre each fortnight! :)

 

Basically -

 

1. Am I under obligation to provide Ingeus with said "documentary evidence", the very same documentary evidence that I provide my job centre adviser each fortnight?

 

2. If I refrain from providing Ingeus with said "documentary evidence", the very same documentary evidence that I provide my job centre adviser each fortnight can the job centre actually sanction me for "not providing Ingeus with documentary evidence" that they themselves already see on a fortnightly basis? :)

 

 

if the emails contain similar words example "This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential (and may contain privileged information) to the ordinary user of the e-mail address to which it was addressed and must not be copied, disclosed or distributed without the prior authorisation of the sender."

 

 

You may need to contact the sender of the email's for authorisation and release of the contents as in some cases if the sender is an employment agency they will see Ingeus as one of their competitors

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I agree that Ingeus may be trying to get information about you that they may use later for their own ends.

 

You would do well to take Mr. P’s advice to make a Subject Access Request (SAR) to DWP in the way he suggests. SAR form can be down-loaded via the following link:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dwp-request-for-personal-information

 

Did they say in their letter that your attendance at the appointment was mandatory, and that the producing of evidence was mandatory? The way it was worded can make a lot of difference.

 

It is also procedure, if the request they make is mandatory, to explain the purpose of such a request in the letter.

 

Personally, I would not show them anything.

 

In the meantime you could point out to Ingeus (preferably in writing) that you provide evidence that satisfies the DWP every time you go to sign on and if they are casting doubt as to your integrity you would want that in writing, as well as an explanation of the use they propose to make of such details as they are demanding. Otherwise you would be happy to supply your DWP and adviser contact numbers to confirm that they are satisfied with your job seeking activities.

 

You could also ask for a written summary of what they have been doing to help you so far on the Programme and what they intend to do in the future, and copies of the notes they keep taking of your conversations.

 

You could inform them that you intend to make a SAR to DWP that will include disclosure of all information about you, held in whatever form, by Ingeus.

 

If you do not already record interviews you might consider starting. Pocket sized recorders can be got fairly cheaply.

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As long as you've shown the JC you've applied for enough jobs and satisfied your JS Agreement/Claimant Commitment then that's all that counts - however, by refusing to show anything to Ingeus they could claim you 'haven't participated' in what was - to them anyway - a 'reasonable activity'. I think if they did raise a doubt the JC would be likely to take their side; don't forget the JC are looking for any way to sanction people they can get.

 

It's not an unreasonable request by Ingeus to ask to see some proof of application and much as I hate to say it -I am NO fan of theirs - I'd be inclined to do as they ask and find a few vacancies to apply for, print them off and show them. Use Reed or CV-Library and it'll take no time at all. They needn't even be vacancies you actually want :)

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It is quite right and proper to advise caution. Taking on a system, especially a system that is run corruptly, requires careful weighing up of all the pros and cons and the risks.

 

I was going to wax lyrical about the pros and cons, the risks and the difference between what WP advisers can or can’t demand and make a case for challenging demands that could be regarded as excessive.

 

However, TG70 has not shared with us the wording of the appointment letter so that we could assess whether it was an invitation, a request or mandation.

 

In the meantime, as I read again the part of the letter that was divulged, I realised that I could have misinterpreted it:

 

"Your activities for your next appointment are:

Please attend appointment to review your work related activity, alongside providing evidence of job application. During your appointment you will undertake job application activity providing documentary evidence of vacancies applied for during this time."

 

Work related activity is undertaken by claimants who are in the Work Related Activity Group. I may have also misinterpreted the DWP documentation but as I read it only ESA claimants are supposed to be in this group.

 

I’ve dug the following from the Disability Rights site:

 

“6. The work-related activity group

If it is decided that you do not have a limited capability for work-related activity, you will be placed in the work-related activity group. If you are placed in the work-related activity group, you will receive a lower rate of ESA than if placed in the support group. If you are entitled to contributory ESA, your award will be limited to just 12 months, although you may be able to claim income-related ESA once the award has come to an end (see 14 below).

You will have to adhere to strict work-related conditions in order to continue receiving the benefit in full, including attending work-focused interviews (see 7 below) and possibly taking part in ‘work-related activity’. You cannot be required, as part of work-related activity, to apply for a job, undertake work or undergo medical treatment. You will not be required to take part in work-related activity if you:

 

  • are a lone parent and you have a child under the age of 3; or
  • receive carer’s allowance or a carer premium.

7. Work-focused interviews

If you are placed in the work-related activity group, you will be required to attend one or more work-focused interviews. At each interview, a ‘personal adviser’ will discuss your work prospects, the steps that you are willing to take to move into work and the support available to you. The adviser will draw up an ‘action plan’, which will outline the activities that you could undertake to help you move into work.

The interview can be waived if you are likely to be starting a job or returning to work. The personal adviser can also defer an interview if, because of your condition, it would be inappropriate at that particular time.

You will not be required to take part in a work-focused interview if you have been placed in the support group.

If you fail to take part in a work-focused interview without good cause, your ESA may be reduced (see 8 below).

As a JSA claimant I have heard of evidence of Actively Seeking Employment, job search, etc, but I can’t claim or admit to having heard of evidence Work Related Activity except in the context of ESA claimants.

As a JSA claimant receiving a letter like the one TG70 received no reasonable person would find it unbelievable that I took it to mean that I was being asked to come to discuss some new activity or scheme.

Reading the first part of that first sentence then, I am being told that my work related activity is to be reviewed. I interpret the whole sentence, than, as stating that how ‘providing evidence of job application’ is to be reviewed ‘alongside’ the review of my ‘work related activity’.

 

So, who could dispute that by the way I interpreted that sentence it would never have occurred to me that it meant a request or demand for copies of job application emails or letters.

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Thanks for the feedback.

 

The letter in question doesn't have the usual "mandatory" threat at the bottom. That's why i thought they were just trying their best to root around for information of job activity I had in my own time away from their offices so they can claim credit and cash if I was successful in any of them.

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It is quite right and proper to advise caution. Taking on a system, especially a system that is run corruptly, requires careful weighing up of all the pros and cons and the risks.

 

I was going to wax lyrical about the pros and cons, the risks and the difference between what WP advisers can or can’t demand and make a case for challenging demands that could be regarded as excessive.

 

However, TG70 has not shared with us the wording of the appointment letter so that we could assess whether it was an invitation, a request or mandation.

 

In the meantime, as I read again the part of the letter that was divulged, I realised that I could have misinterpreted it:

 

"Your activities for your next appointment are:

Please attend appointment to review your work related activity, alongside providing evidence of job application. During your appointment you will undertake job application activity providing documentary evidence of vacancies applied for during this time."

 

Work related activity is undertaken by claimants who are in the Work Related Activity Group. I may have also misinterpreted the DWP documentation but as I read it only ESA claimants are supposed to be in this group.

 

I’ve dug the following from the Disability Rights site:

 

“6. The work-related activity group

If it is decided that you do not have a limited capability for work-related activity, you will be placed in the work-related activity group. If you are placed in the work-related activity group, you will receive a lower rate of ESA than if placed in the support group. If you are entitled to contributory ESA, your award will be limited to just 12 months, although you may be able to claim income-related ESA once the award has come to an end (see 14 below).

You will have to adhere to strict work-related conditions in order to continue receiving the benefit in full, including attending work-focused interviews (see 7 below) and possibly taking part in ‘work-related activity’. You cannot be required, as part of work-related activity, to apply for a job, undertake work or undergo medical treatment. You will not be required to take part in work-related activity if you:

 

  • are a lone parent and you have a child under the age of 3; or
  • receive carer’s allowance or a carer premium.

7. Work-focused interviews

If you are placed in the work-related activity group, you will be required to attend one or more work-focused interviews. At each interview, a ‘personal adviser’ will discuss your work prospects, the steps that you are willing to take to move into work and the support available to you. The adviser will draw up an ‘action plan’, which will outline the activities that you could undertake to help you move into work.

The interview can be waived if you are likely to be starting a job or returning to work. The personal adviser can also defer an interview if, because of your condition, it would be inappropriate at that particular time.

You will not be required to take part in a work-focused interview if you have been placed in the support group.

If you fail to take part in a work-focused interview without good cause, your ESA may be reduced (see 8 below).

As a JSA claimant I have heard of evidence of Actively Seeking Employment, job search, etc, but I can’t claim or admit to having heard of evidence Work Related Activity except in the context of ESA claimants.

As a JSA claimant receiving a letter like the one TG70 received no reasonable person would find it unbelievable that I took it to mean that I was being asked to come to discuss some new activity or scheme.

Reading the first part of that first sentence then, I am being told that my work related activity is to be reviewed. I interpret the whole sentence, than, as stating that how ‘providing evidence of job application’ is to be reviewed ‘alongside’ the review of my ‘work related activity’.

 

So, who could dispute that by the way I interpreted that sentence it would never have occurred to me that it meant a request or demand for copies of job application emails or letters.

 

 

 

The letter I received in full is as below -

 

 

Dear X X,

 

Important information - your next appointment

 

This letter contains the details of your next appointment. We look forward to seeing you again and continuing to support you to find the right job.

 

Your next appointment will be:

 

On: xx/xx/xx

At: xx

 

Location: xx

With: xx

 

It is very important that you attend all appointments. If you cannot attend, you must contact us as soon as possible so that arrangements can be made for a new appointment. Out telephone number is XXXXX XXX XXX.

 

Your activities for your next appointment are:

Please attend appointment to review your work related activity, alongside providing evidence of job application. During your appointment you will undertake job application activity providing documentary evidence of vacancies applied for during this time.

 

We will refund your travel costs for appointments - please retain proof of purchase.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

X X

Work Consultant Attain

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Non-compliant JSA invitation - As you have highlighted, no mention of "mandatory". Nor is there any warnings about "benefits being affected".

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this should be sufficient if you have to provide them job application details

date Jobsite Job Application Confirmation ref no 12345678 awaiting feedback ( and if they ask what is status )

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Make sure that their letters follow the rules of how they are meant to be written

Plus if you have no choice but to comply with evidence make sure to use their machines to print it out as they can absorb the costs that way plus if you was to print out loads then that's extra to absorb

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Thanks very much for that TG70.

That letter is clearly not a mandatory notification.

You could choose not to attend on any pretext you want to use and there is nothing that they could do about it.

If you did choose to attend you could insist that you have no intention of showing them any personal exchanges between yourself and potential employers unless you are properly mandated to do so.

By proper mandation is meant; by what authority and to what end is such mandation made?

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You could choose not to attend on any pretext you want to use and there is nothing that they could do about it.

 

They could raise a spurious benefit doubt which might lead to a sanction. Be careful how you [the OP] tackle this issue, and make sure you have copies of the guidance to hand along with supporting evidence should they try to raise a sanction.

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I accept that one has to be careful and know what one’s doing. That’s why preparation and advice beforehand is recommended. That could explain why TG turned to this site for advice on what action to take. He knows already that inaction is an option, as well probably as the consequences of inaction.

However, having established that there is grounds for complaint or action it is no use considering what they could do to TG rather what TG would do to them.

In the case we are discussing here it is obvious that whoever wrote that letter is attempting to intimidate TG into doing something that is not within their remit to demand. That could be construed as fraud, certainly misrepresentation.

(Notice how anyone even remotely associated with WP Providers and DWP squirm when they hear mention of the word ‘maladministration’. They know that this is an offence that they have to by law take seriously, enquire into and act upon, and sharpish).

WP contracts with DWP states categorically that attempts at such things as fraud, misrepresentation or any deviation from the standards of behaviour agreed will result in fines ranging from £5,000 to £15,000 or even termination of contract if considered severe enough.

I don’t know how many WP advisers know their employers’ contract with DWP. They certainly won’t expect claimants to know, far less throw it at them chapter and verse.

At the end of the day, as always, it’s up to the individual. There are two options, choose one or the other and accept or live with the consequences. The satisfaction and sense of self-esteem one gets from getting one over on those people is exhilarating.

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I don’t know how many WP advisers know their employers’ contract with DWP. They certainly won’t expect claimants to know, far less throw it at them chapter and verse.

 

I had also been searching for copies of these contracts. I seem to recall the draft being available from one of the DWP web sites, but it is no longer available. Others have made F.o.I. requests asking for these contracts, but the requests have been turned down on grounds of "commercial sensitivity".... Makes you wonder what they are trying to hide from public scrutiny...

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I had also been searching for copies of these contracts. I seem to recall the draft being available from one of the DWP web sites, but it is no longer available. Others have made F.o.I. requests asking for these contracts, but the requests have been turned down on grounds of "commercial sensitivity".... Makes you wonder what they are trying to hide from public scrutiny...

The documents at the first 2 links give a comprehensive outline of the sort of terms and conditions that concern us and that Government Departments (Including DWP) include in contracts with service providers (Including Ingeus).

The documents in the third link are part and parcel of specific Work Programme contracts between DWP and WP Providers (including Ingeus). Those Providers are contractually obliged to operate and provide the services that they are contracted to provide within the guidelines.

Rules on raising and pursuing grievances and complaints are well covered.

In the majority of cases a claimant will be successful if he/she can show that proper procedures as laid out in guidances were not followed.

 

DWP TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR THE SUPPLY OF LOW VALUE WELFARE TO WORK TRAINING (DYNAMIC PURCHASING SYSTEM)

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/252692/low-value-terms.pdf

 

Standard Model Terms and Conditions for Services Contracts (v6) 29 September 2014

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/359931/dwp-model-tc-for-services.pdf

 

Work Programme Provider Guidance, updated 27 Oct 2014.

21 chapters of does and don’ts. This forms a part of the DWP contract with Work Programme Providers.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/work-programme-dwp-provider-guidance

 

 

There’s a fair bit of reading there Mr, P. Sorry but you asked.

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There’s a fair bit of reading there Mr, P. Sorry but you asked.

 

Was looking for a raspberry blowing emoticon. Can't find one, so this will have to do instead::tape:

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Hi people,

I gave no details of my employees details, i`ve had the usual harassment from Ingeus since starting a new job 4 weeks ago, which may i say i found myself! with no help from them, so no way do i want my ex adviser to get any juicy bonus.

I had a thought early as i`m signed upto Ingeus for 2 years (UGH!) what would happened if i say lost my job in a year (could happen, its a new company), would i have to go back to Igneus?.

The only reason i ask this is i want to give Ingeus both barrels in response to all the phone calls, texts, emails etc...but if i have to go back to them and i had the same adviser i would be surely in for some treatment and sent on all kinds of placements etc...and treated even worse than i was.

Thanks in advance.

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Your two year sentence starts from the day you had your first meeting. The clock does not stop whilst you are in employment, so if you only had another six months to go, you'd be free of them come April 2015.

 

Should you be misfortunate to return to their care, they have to treat you fairly and in line with the DWP charter - Failure to do so, and you could raise a complaint, that if it ended up going to the Independent Complaints Commissioner, could cost them up to £5,000.

 

If you are not claiming any qualifying benefits (JSA or ESA), feel free to tell them where to go, and if need be, send them a map. :razz:

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Thankyou Mr P.

I will fire off a suitable email over the weekend to my ex adviser :-)

By the way what a great forum this is helping each other out with there problems and all the great advice.

all the best.

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One word of warning: They may tell you that even if you are working, they are required "to remain in contact and provide support". Your response, should you wish to, is to tell them that harassment laws override any contractual terms they may have with the DWP - Feel free to express yourself how ever you deem appropriate, after all, they can't sanction you for it :razz:

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  • 4 weeks later...

Last week I received a letter from Ingeus informing me I hadn't attended one of their appointments and it could affect my benefits. The thing is I've been attending every appointment I've been told to and I've been on time and punctual for each and every one of them.

 

The letter read :-

 

"IMPORTANT INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR BENEFIT PAYMENTS

 

As you did not attend your last appointment, we have arranged a new time and date.It is very important that you attend the appointment or contact us as soon as possible if you cannot make it."

 

The usual information on the back of the letter about failing to attend, benefits being stopped etc.

 

This letter also had a date for another appointment on there, to which I attended. When I attended that appointment I informed them that the previous appointment letter didn't reach my front door so how could I have attended an appointment if I wasn't aware there even was one?

 

The Ingeus "work consultant attain" made the usual excuse that I've heard a few people in my Ingeus building being flogged off with all so often when they've failed to be notified of an appointment - "Do you have problems receiving your mail? If so then contact your post office. Once the letters leave this office we are not responsible for them."

 

Problem is, I've lived at the same address for over 40 years and I've never had any problems receiving my mail nor any problems with the post office or the people delivering my mail. I informed them that it's actually Christmas time and there's a high volume of mail across the country, maybe that could be the problem to which I was told that "all appointment letters sent from Ingeus are sent registered" -

 

 

Ehhhhh sorry but no they aren't, in-factual information straight off from my Ingeus "work consultant attain" I produced the envelope from my pocket that my letter for that current appointment was enclosed within and asked them to point towards a "register code or mark" on the envelope, of course I was met with silence as she tapped away at the computer.

 

I asked if they have all their appointment letters delivered by Royal Mail registered and of so there should be proof of posting my particular letter and if it's been registered then I'd like to see the proof that Ingeus had in fact posted it. She shrugged her shoulders and continued to bang away at the computer keyboard. I asked if they have any system in place to know which letters are being sent out from their office and asked if they had any kind of proof of posting appointment letters to which of course I never received an answer.

 

I then said I wanted to have all my future Ingeus appointments relayed to me by the usual post AND by email so I know the dates and times of them as they have my email details on their file and was told "we can't do that it's letter confirmation only."

 

I then asked the procedure for informing the job centre of my "non-attendance" to the appointment which I wasn't even aware I had. The "work consultant attain" replied that she had sent confirmation to the job centre of "non-attendance" and that my benefits "could be stopped for four weeks."

 

So basically my cash could be stopped for a period of time now through no fault of my own. The bigger problem caused by Ingeus is that on my last signing on appointment at the job centre (on 8th December) I received a letter stating I don't sign on again until the 5th January because of the holiday period and my money is supposed to be in my account on the 23rd so I'm now going to be left without cash over the Christmas and New Year period all though no fault of my own.

 

And, of course it wasn't finished there. Before leaving my appointment I was told to sit tight and they'd print off my next appointment there and then while I was in their office, I was then handed three sheets of A4 paper with three separate appointments on them for 5th January, 9th January and 13th January. I've been "rewarded" for asking questions on the non-delivery of an appointment letter from them with three attendances to Ingeus in one week period.

 

So, what happens when Ingeus send off a "non-attendance" report to the job centre? Through n fault of my own I now face having no money over the Christmas and New Year period.

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