Threatening letter whilst off sick

[Emmzzi]

Bill, why do you not want to go and be her rep? As a rep you can....

[billathome65]

I'm angry at how she is being treated and know I will not remain impartial that's the whole top and bottom I'm uncomfortable with what's going on here. However, if push comes to shove, I will rep her. Knowing the way the company has been with her previously, I can see this turning silly. The AR is a standard process, but the reps refusal to do their task at such a basic level leads me to believe that this is going to grow legs and this then puts me in a difficult position.

[SabreSheep]

I'm angry at how she is being treated and know I will not remain impartial that's the whole top and bottom I'm uncomfortable with what's going on here. However, if push comes to shove, I will rep her. Knowing the way the company has been with her previously, I can see this turning silly. The AR is a standard process, but the reps refusal to do their task at such a basic level leads me to believe that this is going to grow legs and this then puts me in a difficult position.

 

Having been in the position to advise a member of the family, Bill displays a tough but correct approach.

A rep should be impartial. Being family he risks putting himself in a compromising situation. Knowing the company involved, they would love a decent rep to expose themselves in such a way.

By trying to get a decent rep for his daughter and working with both the rep and his daughter he can achieve more.

 

One example. A family member of mine was demoted due to a bullying manager. By the time the area organiser got his hands on the appeal all the leg work had been done and prepped. The Regional directer offered reinstatement there and then. However the family member declined their offer, told them what hours they were going to work and what store And they got it.

 

The other important thing to realize for those who are not aware of the company. Reps in this company are voluntary. Officially they can refuse to rep anyone (Although that not normally a good plan on how to retain and recruit members) BUT the area organiser should arrange representation.

 

 

I look forward to seeing a resolved on this thread int he future

[billathome65]

Area Organiser off work today, however he has been contacted and should be in touch with her tomorrow.

 

A simple AR due to the rep refusal turned into this fiasco? Anyway, after trawling through hours of literature this will now also involve grievances against reps re dignity at work, manager and PM re dignity at work and failing to comply with EA. A grievance against PM for failing to follow company attendance support procedure leading to this situation. Oh and a separate grievance against the PM who my daughter was informed by another manager that another role for her in store must not be offered to her due to her mental health issues, whilst unless co-oberated this is hearsay it is not my daughter's place to prove this allegation all she will be doing is highltghting what she has been told.

 

I Knew this was going to grow legs.

 

Anyway additionally to this I contacted the local disability employment liaison team via email on Saturday they contacted my daughter today advising that Remploy were contacted and stated they would act as a supporting agency for her, however she needed to be referred via the disability advisor at the local job center as she meets their criteria she called the advisor who is off until tomorrow so fingers crossed all goes to plan.

[billathome65]

Well a bit of a twist today she should have had her review meeting today the one the 4 reps refused to support her with so the plan was when they pull her in to call me so I would go and rep seeing as the area organiser didn't arrange another rep How predictable this was becoming.

 

Here's the twist, she is pulled in to NOT a review but is read an email from OH stating that ( and I paraphrase until I see the email ) due to her mental health problems she may not be able to continue her employment????? OOOOOOK this coming from the fact that PM sent OH an email and without even seeing my daughter they make this statement I thought OH had to actually see a person and assess the person in question before concluding????

 

Also OH suggested she goes back to her GP. and follow his direction?? The deputy manager then tells her to go back to her GP and get a fit note theres no way the GP will do this and she has been back in work for the past 2 weeks without them showing any concern so what they hope to gain from such a ridiculous instruction I don't know. So whats going on here give me a logical workable break down on this guys and girls.

 

I told daughter to insist on a copy of the letter the pm sent OH and a copy of the letter from OH she asked for both and was told that the email from OH has details of another person on it that they need to remove???? I thought this was a email to do with my daughter so I wounder if the email will read like they are just removing someone else's details or removing something derogatory. If it looks like the email is just taking something out they don't want her to see as it may be deamed derogitory If she does a SAR will she then get to see what is actually on there?

 

Watch this space and throw me your breakdown on this twist. BTW they tried to pull her in without a rep last week and so she put her phone on record and told them she was recording it which sent them into a panic the PM was called in who started spouting off about Data Protection Hmmmmmmm how does that work there is nothing in the policy to say she can't record and it's her data ( again Hmmmmmm )

[Emmzzi]

what does PM stand for please?

[ericsbrother]

Personnel Manager most likely. Not every company sees their employees as a resource. In geology a resource is something that doesnt grow so you have to mine it.

[Emmzzi]

Personnel Manager most likely. Not every company sees their employees as a resource. In geology a resource is something that doesnt grow so you have to mine it.

 

simple question, doesn't need a loaded answer.....

[billathome65]

Personnel manager Emmzzi.

[Emmzzi]

All the email can realistically say without access to her records or an inteview (phone or in person) is that the job may not be suitable for someone with mental health conditions.

 

Has she had that 2 week review with her own doctor and has he signed her back on?

 

What is she doing to assist with her being "hard work" (paraphrasing your description) - has she had any "social cues" education lately, for example?

[billathome65]

Hi her psychiatrist meeting was put back till July by the hospital however this has now been brought forwards till the end of January.

 

She is waiting for a call from Remploy with the view of an employment support adviser working with her and the company.

 

The concerning thing here as I see it is no attendance support procedures where followed by the company they have actively tried to discourage her from being in work knowing that this would support any plans they have to get rid of her.

 

There is also this new issue of the area organizer not sorting a replacement rep which leads me to suspect that something more under handed is afoot here. ( call me paranoid lol ) one hope is they are just incompetent however if it's more sinister the wife as a mental health nurse has access to solicitors dealing in mental health law.

[Emmzzi]

Bill,

 

just how difficult do you think she is to work with? Honest view please, not the dad view

[billathome65]

It ain't about how hard work she is or isn't, it about how unprofessional a simple process has been handled. and how the company have tried to manipulate.

[Emmzzi]

It ain't about how hard work she is or isn't, it about how unprofessional a simple process has been handled. and how the company have tried to manipulate.

 

I'm actually trying to get to the bottom of why the reps won't support. I have some reps I know who won't support some individuals because they ave spent a lot of effort on them n the past for weak cases, or the individual is too uncooperative.

 

As far as I can see the company have issued a number of warning shots, but haven't taken any action to date.

[billathome65]

Hi Emmzzi the company have actually fabricated what they felt would get rid of her and the reps have supported her accordingly by highlighting and addressing the alleged facts against my daughter. Yes a lot of work, however only because of the twisting of facts by others.

 

Example: daughter suspended for the theft company claimed information daughter asked for was not available which was the area making their case. It went to disciplinary decision and they had all the paperwork ready to record dismissal, however, after a final insistence that the information daughter wanted would be available, they went and looked then came back red faced as the information showed two things 1. Money disappeared days earlier than alleged 2. My daughter was not in work her manager knew all this and was withholding the info it is alleged.

 

Another example: daughter accused of refusing to return to building to press the buzzer after following others out who had also not pressed allegation was that security had asked calmly for her to return to the store daughter stated he was shouting at her like a child and being aggressive she felt intimidated by his behavior and that's why she refused to return. The company dismissed her accounts and were threatening dismissal as its gross misconduct, however on gaining access to video records it clearly showed the security in an aggressive posture, shouting and pointing his finger, he through items across the security desk and this disproved his version of events again the company had stalled to provide evidence asked for which vindicated her each time anything happens her versions of events are totally dismissed in favor of more damming facts.

 

Anyway, she was told there would be no additional meeting so it's out of process, and was given the copies of the emails which I need to read through objectively. It has been stated by OH and this is only based on a one sided argument from the PM that my daughter is unfit for work and should be instructed to go back to her GP. However, she has not been removed from duties by the managers as indicated in the OH email so again they are failing in their duty of care My daughter is just leaving them with it because as far as she is concerned she has done nothing wrong.

 

I'll read the emails and advise her further.

 

Regards Bill

[Emmzzi]

so what did OH base their report on? One fit note? Or something else? I am confused!

[billathome65]

On the email from the PM outlining the fact that she had been through my daughters personnel file and read a psychiatrists letter outlining her personalty and mental health issues and some numbered risk factors of my daughters condition. PM states she has a colleague who is becoming increasingly difficult to "deal with" in store she states that managers are becoming concerned by her aggressive outbursts?

 

( aggression in this place can be simply because you disagree with something and challenge the managers strongly, or you become agitated when feeling that you are being wronged in some way, so I take that statement with a pinch of salt )

 

example: I am aware that she was accused of something by the store manager a few weeks back which turned out to be wrong as he had got her mixed up with another colleague but before realising his mistake she had become very upset and knowing her when she gets upset she goes into fight or flee mode she wanted to just leave the situation to calm down and was not being allowed to do so, so became agitated and loud leading to another colleague having to step in and ask the store manager to back off.

 

So to conclude the statement from OH was based on PM detailing risks and diagnosis as copied from the psychiatrists letter and her statement of alleged aggression which could in all possibility be no more than frustration and defensive mannerisms rather than aggression ( one thing I do know is my daughter is not predisposed to violent outbursts )

 

Ive now seen the emails and all seems above board the OH is just statementing an opinion based on small piece of information and suggests actions my daughter should be taking which she has already been doing they do however say there is nothing OH can do for my daughter as clearly she is not fit to be in work? Suggesting they tell her that "Tactfully" however they give her the emails un edited Hmmmm ( very Tactful.)

 

As far as my daughter is concerned until the company tell her she can't go into work she will keep doing it ( she needs the wage and as the company where threatening dismissal on long term sickness grounds she won't play their game.

 

I'm now waiting for the next episode in this saga.

 

I understand the companies needs but I can aso see how they have handled things which to be honest has been extremely poorly. The company in a lot of ways have been very instrumental in feeding this issue which is no surprise and are now dealing with the mess as companies always do and sod their part in the mess.

 

My view personally if I was giving advice would be look for another job get out of there, but we all know what the employment market is like now I wouldn't be walking away without a fight.

 

Regards Bill

[Emmzzi]

How did the compnay get a psychiatrists letter? I am not understanding the chain of events.

[billathome65]

Following a previous matter which i'm not fully ofay with the company wanted best to understand her needs I'm assuming so at a vist to the psychiatrist he did a report which she was then able to pass a copy onto the employer. That's why the company have this letter on file however we then have the question has the company missusing this letter to add flames to the companies side of the fire?

 

Because had the OH not been fed that information whilst using key words the OH would not have been able to come to the statement they made. Don't worry Emmzzi it confuses me the best of times LOL

 

Bill

[SabreSheep]

So let me gut this straight.

 

Employer had a letter from Psychiatrist explaining MH issues

THEN from your description they created a situation that went volatile by refusing to allow the person to leave the situation to cool down.

 

IF so I would hope there was some proof as this in itself is discrimination. At best it is a failure to allow reasonable adjustments. HELL even people without disabiltities are allowed adjournments in meetings to compose themselves. Preventing someone with MH issues from being able to "cool down" in a confrontation and preventing them from walkign away AT WORST is deliberate negligence or willful exaggeration of her Mental Health Issues.

 

Have you contacted MIND? They may well be interested in this whole sorry affair.

 

Few points worth noting.

 

Without at least consulting with the person involved, OH cannot possibly make an informed judgement.

Also the fact that she "went off on one when prevented from leavign the situation is aggravating factor.

It is also a reasonable adjustment and expectation that management are trained to respect disability and understand reasonable adjustments which would defiantly include allowing your daughter space to cool down in a confrontational situation.

[billathome65]

That incident wasn't connected to this situation sabresheep I just used it as an example to highlight how she can react under pressure and how by not understanding how to handle her can then create a sittuation from nothing.

 

I actually believe that the reference the PM was making with respect to the Managers came about because the PM told my daughter she was going in with these managers and basically X an Y would be addressed however when in there alone with these two managers and feeling vulnerable they tried to introduce a Z into the mix which got her on the defensive and agitated this was then interpreted as aggression.

 

However my daughter tells me that on seing the statement the PM made she asked her about it.

 

She tells me she said hang on lets be fair you tell me the managers will be doing X and Y but then they try to add Z I felt vulnerable and reacted defensively how would you feel in my situation? According to my daughter the PM said maybe we could have handled it better If that's the case then her report to OH was only based on a perception and not on fact.

 

But in a way as the PM is aware of her MH issues by sending her into a room without moral support is actually failing a duty of care and also could lead to a volatile situation developing.

 

My daughter is waiting to speak to a mental health support worker from Remploy who we are hopping can have a positive affect in all of this.

 

But still after all's said and done how do I keep supporting a union as a rep who without issue can leave vulnerable members or any member unsupported at a whim? and the fact that the area organiser did sweet fa has compounded things more.

 

Anyway as I said I will wait for the next saga.

 

 

Bill

[Emmzzi]

It seems to me the union may have reached the end of their tether with your daughter; it happens. How many cases, over how long?

 

You have not stated anything she is doing to help herself; what is she doing? And are the employer and union aware of the positive steps she is making? (This makes people more willing to help, compared to being given a list of things they (the employer) "have" to do). what counselling haas she had to deal with her condition and how often does she revisit it?

 

She has provided a pysch report to work and is now upset they are using it? That seems ridiculous!

 

Honestly, if I were daughter I'd be less concerned about rights and entitlements and more concerned about how I could be taking every step to make it work; not easy of your communication style is abrasive (even through disability)

 

The employer has to make *reasonable* adjustments, not every adjustment. If daughter genuinely needs special handling every time she is given feedback - that's not reasonable. If she can't take feedback because of a short fuse, that's not good.

 

If she causes many problems they may in fact dismiss and risk a hit on losing at ET. It's faster and removes a distraction from the unit. Be aware this may happen. Taking concilaitory action before it gets to that stage is ALWAYS my preference. After, and she has no job, and no reference - whatever else may happen.

[billathome65]

Emmzzi i'm sure if you read back you will see clearly that I have explained how she is supporting herself in order to support the company.

 

1. She was the one who approached the employer asking for a bit of support at a vulnerable time to keep her in work. ( The employer failed to work with her )

2. She has been in contact with employment mental health team to help support her and the employer ( The employer didn't do a refareal to OH a year or so ago when they where supposed to )

3. She has not complained about them using the psyc report against her ( I picked up on something Sabertooth said and hypothisised asto whethter using her psyc report in the context they have could be seen as abusing it

4. It's not feedback that causes issues nor lights a short fuse there isn't a short fuse just a young woman who due to an aspect of her mental health is unable to process a situation she may perceive as intimidating as accurately as someone else. That is actually part of her mental health disorder.

5. She has also separate from work been trying to be refered to a support network that helps people like my daughter develop social and interpersonal skills

 

I am sure you are aware of REMPLOY? If not they provide inwork support and guidence and in my daughters case 6 months work structured guidence and support along with the employer to be able to remain in work so she with guidence from myself has actually done everything she can to as you put it Support herself.

 

As for the union i don't give a toss how many times they are called to support a PAYING member as a rep there are colleagues at work who I know for a fact would be the first to crucify me for their own gains, however that's neither here or there to me I may hate their guts but I will still rep them 100 times it's not my job to judge it's my job to ensure the processes are followed correctly and fairly If I don't do that then why should people pay a lottery union???

 

At no time have I stated my daughter is unhappy at this or that. I have stated that originally she received a letter which for someone on long term would be a standard letter but not in here case so she felt it was threatening and hence the title thread. Please show where I have said she is unhappy at them using the psyc report?

 

From there I posted that 4 reps refused to rep her. I'm sure you would be happy to pay for a service you didn't receive?

 

The historical cases surrounding my daughter and her use of the union reps show that in every case it was the company manipulating the facts in order to justify a reason to get rid of her so forgive me if I sound a bit ****ed here would you trust anyone who acted that way?

 

I'm Going to leave this as i said and wait for the next saga

[Emmzzi]

Hi Bill,

 

I can see this is making you more tense. I'm just trying to explain how an employer will see it.

 

Asking for work to do things differently isn't "helping herself." The situations you describe from your/ daughters point of view definitely have 2 sides! Relearning social cues, CBT, whatever is appropriate, is helping herself.

 

Union members don't pay to be supported *in any and all circumstances.* There should be a fair chance of success and the resources, which are limited, should be used properly. And I don't believe reps should have to support people who have been abusive to them, for example. Membership fees are not the only consideration, surely?

 

Anyway. My stance is still that resolution without confrontation is almost always the way to go. I do hope Remploy can assist.

[billathome65]

Emmzzi had she just gone to the gp been signed off just before the busiest period I would be saying she was an idiot she didn't though she actively tried to support her attendance so did everything reasonable as an employee.

 

If we leave her mental health to one side for a moment she was a colleague who FOLLOWED and SUPPORTED the companies process, she was not asking for the company to make ridiculous adjustments she was not asking for anything additional to breaks just had she been given the respect as a human being and listened to she was asking that as it was a time of the year where she struggles to cope that the company make adjustments to how she took her breaks in order to relive the pressure on her mental health, surely you cannot see that as being unreasonable?

 

Union members pay and receive a number of benefits and a fundamental benefit is to receive support when required not when it suits the union. If a member was being aggressive or abusive to anyone irrespective of if, it's a rep that should be dealt with as its own thing I would not expect anyone to accept aggressive behavior what has to be understood though, is as human beings, even if a company wishes to compartmentalize we are all individuals same as a person with an illness who may require a bit more resources there is no cost to the union for a rep to do what they are trained for except in time.

 

Union reps do more behind the scenes than members know As a rep though if I am called to support or mediate, then as long as I am in the business I will do that without saying which member shall or shalnt be reped that's me. Yes, some are hard work and some are pains in the bum some take the Pee as a rep it's our job to just ensure processes are followed.

 

Anyway there's no issues with me I know your giving advice and it's appreciated.

 

Regards Bill