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coops999

Rutherford/HFO Capital Ltd & HFO Services Ltd - 2007 BC 'debt' now LINK - set aside hearing

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I have received a letter from LINK FINANCIAL have tried to attach it together with a letter they say they sent to a previous address I lived at but cannot see how to attach, have it saved as a pdf file.

 

 

Unsure as to what to do next, especially concerned as they are threatening costs & have no idea what this could entail.

 

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

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Hi Coops,

 

See the guide at post #4 here about attaching a PDF image - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?444501-Barclays-Partner-Finance-Clyesdale-financial-services-reclaiming-charges&p=4725968&viewfull=1#post4725968

 

Or just tell us the jist of what the letter says.

 

:-)


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they wont stand a chance in hell of getting the substitution of claimant after 6yrs.

 

 

I like the use of the word 'doomed' too.

 

 

dx


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Thanks for replying.

 

So unsure of what to do next?

 

Concerned that the fact that a settlement was offered to HFO SERVICES LTD could work against me,

 

 

the offer was made under pressure from my Ex-Wife because she wanted the charging order lifted on the property to get me off the mortgage & Divorce me,

 

 

when they said the payment would have to be made to HFO CAPITAL Ltd I challenged them saying that the charging order was granted to HFO SERVICES

and surely that is who would have to be paid, it was them that told me that HFO SERVICES LTD was no longer trading.

 

I sent 3 SAR requests to HFO CAPITAL LTD to cover them HFO SERVICES LTD & TURNBULL RUTHERFORD but never received anything back,

chased it by email & demanded that they comply as it was their legal obligation to do so, never got a response until received an email saying they had sold debt to LINK FINANCIAL,

didn't contact LINK as was advised not to.

 

My Ex-Wife has agreed to attend the hearing with me so as to substantiate that the original paperwork from HFO SERVICES was never received,

& that no subsequent notifications of any sort in relation to the sale of debt to HFO CAPITAL or LINK FINANCIAL has been received at the address connected.

 

I have been requesting a copy of the original BARCLAYCARD agreement from all parties ( with the exception of LINK ) since I became aware of this

and have never been provided with anything.

 

Should I make contact with LINK prior to the hearing & if so what should I ask for?

 

As I will be representing myself just not sure of how to best present my case and word it with the judge?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

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hopefully I have removed all of the information which has to come off.

 

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated on how best to approach / defend this at the hearing.

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hehe

so their name is not on either the CCJ nor the CO.

 

so as they pointout

its near impossible for you to do anything about it 7yrs down the line...

 

well the same applies to them too!!

 

what a load of old waffle!!

 

dx


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So in terms of the Hearing am I best to say that Link Financial Have no standing as they are not the named company on either document?

 

 

Additionally they mention the settlement offer that was made, this offer was made to HFO SERVICES LTD & retracted when the instruction advising that payment would have to be made to HFO CAPITAL LTD.

 

 

Am concerned that the fact that an offer in settlement was made will count against me.

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moved to legals

 

 

dx


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Can anybody help me with this, I am due to go to court on Friday 12th June for a hearing where I have asked for the CO to be set aside as HFO SERVICES LTD are no longer a trading entity.

 

 

I have been advised that LINK FINANCIAL the most recent owner of the debt intend to attend & defend, I am looking for advice on how best to put forward my argument that as the CO is not in their name that it should be set aside.

 

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

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This is a weak argument, you need to use more 'clout' in that HFO have been found to have used incorrect processes and that Link Financial have a tenuous claim to the debt.

 

Write down the sequence of events that led to the CO being placed and the fact that HFO are no longer able to collect on this debt.

 

Other people will be along soon, although you have left it a bit late for more detailed advice.

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Have asked for judgement to be set aside because no proof of debt has ever been provided, paperwork for the original court hearing was never received so was unable to defend, judgement was granted to HFO SERVICES LTD.

 

 

Proof of the debt was requested from Turnbull Rutherford initially & then from HFO SERVICES LTD & lastly from HFO CAPITAL LTD, on each occasion SAR requests were ignored & most recently as soon as SAR requests were submitted to HFO CAPITAL LTD after chasing by email they advised debt had been sold to LINK FINANCIAL.

 

 

My ex - wife requested that I make a offer of settlement to HFO SERVICES LTD in order to enable her to get the CO lifted from the property, her father who is in ill health & suffering from early stages of dementia wants to give her money to reduce / clear off the outstanding mortgage but in order to do so this matter needs to be resolved, I made an offer of settlement to HFO SERVICES LTD but was advised that the settlement would have to go to HFO CAPITAL LTD, I challenged this on the basis that the CO is in the name of HFO SERVICES LTD & that is who I would be making the offer / payment to, HFO CAPITAL LTD said that HFO SERVICES was no longer a trading entity & therefore all payment would go to them.

 

 

If the company to whom the CO is granted ceases trading then I don't see how the CO can just be transferred to another company.

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The CO is not transferred ......the Judgment is ...the charging order is only security that is attached to the judgment.To attack a charging order you attack the judgment.


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So what is the best way to attack the judgement??

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I understand that this should have been contested sooner, but as I said earlier the judgement was gained without knowledge as paperwork for the original court proceeding was never received.

 

 

The fact that the judgement / CO existed at all only came to light when my Ex-Wife decided that she wanted to move on with her life and filed for a divorce, at this point we she was advised that the CO against the property existed.

 

 

It was at this point that TR were contacted to request the proof of debt & copy of original agreement & it has been rolling on & off since then without proof of debt or SAR request being answered at any stage.

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Place your contentions at this Fridays hearing and see how the DJ views it.


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appreciate your comments & help but really a novice at this kind of thing, is there any advice anyone can give as to a structure of putting forward to the DJ, understand I have left it late but really could do with some help.

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How about keeping it simple and state thatvit has changed hands several times and you have no statements or proof you actually owe the amount claimed. Don't go into legal stuff and the judge may be on your side.

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Hi coops

 

I tend to agree with sgirl. I recently won a case where the Judge ruled that there was unproven title (MKDP had not demonstrated that they owned the debt), and opened with 'it is for the claimant to prove not for you to disprove'.

 

x

 

vic

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A few points.

 

1. HFO Services still exists. You have no real evidence it is not trading. It probably isn’t, but it is not registered as dormant. I’s irrelevant, alas.

 

2. At a set aside, you would also need to show you had a chance of defending the original case. Without a result from a CCA request (you could only have gone to the original creditor), you can’t show this. Did you SAR the original creditor at all? We’d need some history of the account to go down this route so late in the day.

 

3. You’ve known about this since 2012, but have taken three years to act. That’s a problem, but it’s easy to show that HFO were lacking in their responses. However, an untimely application for set aside is likely to fail.

 

4. Link’s documentation may be poor. They mention in their letter that they wish to be substituted as the claimant – I’m not completely sure they can do that beyond six years, because the CCJ itself is dead but the CO securing the judgment debt is live.

 

5. How do you explain that a CO was granted when someone was living at the property? Was your mail not forwarded? Did they get the CCJ and CO at the property address or elsewhere?

 

6. As you are joint mortgagees, I’ve stolen this from eggboxy one on this thread:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?203298-A-guide-to-Charging-Orders-amp-Orders-for-Sale/page32

 

You must remember it's not that the Charging Order is Full or Final it's what it is made against that counts. For a sole owner or joint owners who both owe the debt, then the charging Order is made against the land and becomes Equitable. But where the property is owned jointly and only one of the owners owes the debt, then the CO is made against the debtors Beneficial Interest (equity). This is far different and and the CO cannot be registered as an Equitable Charge on the LR deeds. It's therefore far easier to get shot of.

 

So perhaps you should only have had a restriction? In other words, I think you could have attacked the CO rather than the CCJ (hence the earlier reference to Form K). But it should have been done ages ago, which remains a problem. See here (thanks to Ford):

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/charging-orders/practice-guide-76-charging-orders

 

In other words, if you could have downgrade the CO effectively to an interim, you could sell it. But the situation may be regarded as more complex as you are divorcing. I just don’t have enough knowledge of COs to give you the correct info, sadly. The lack of your earlier action – or an objection from your other half, who should have been informed about any restriction – is an issue. Was your other half informed by the Land Registry?

 

7. Have you considered negotiation, for example agreeing the removal of the CO subject to an agreed repayment schedule secured by a Tomlin Order? Not totally sure if this is possible –*the creditor doesn’t need to do this, and why should they IF they can be substituted as claimant? But, at present, Link cannot really claim anything unless they apply to be substituted as the creditor or beneficiary. Remember, the CO is against the property or your beneficial interest in the property in favour of HFO Services. Have you ever gotten hold of a copy of the claim form or judgment from the courts?

 

8. A charging order has a life of its own, but I think Link may have a problem being substituted as the CCJ claimant after seven years. Within six years, I would see no problem – case law says they could under CPR 19. Need to dig more on this. For example, you should demand sight of the assignment from HFO Services to Link to see if the contract allows for it. I would also dig more on whether HFO Capital actually were assigned the debts from HFO Services – if so, HFO Services had no right to sell to Link. This is one case where the sale agreements may be validly requested. See my earlier comments.

 

Overall, and as I’ve already said, this is a bit of a mess because of your failure to act.

 

The area I would work on first is whether, after seven years, Link can still be substituted as the claimant. I would strongly recommend consulting a specialist solicitor. I can find no (free) definitive answers to this.

 

The other area I would investigate is the assignment route – look at whether, in the light of HFO Capital Ireland buying the shares of HFO Services, they also reassigned the accounts. The fact that HFO Capital was seeking payment it otherwise would never have been entitled to suggests this was the case. Dig out the evidence (I have given you all the prompts earlier in the thread and elsewhere on CAG – Google it!), and show that it is highly likely that HFO Services were not actually in a position to sell the account to Link.

 

But I’m not sure how that helps you in your set aside application – unless you can show there was some irregularity in the original judgment. Did you ever receive notices of assignment from HFO in or around 2006-07? Do you have any history of the account?

 

Maybe give Barclaycard a call and ask who they sold it to, exactly, and when – you might get a useful surprise. Especially if the name HFO Services or Roxburgh crops up, because neither company had an agreement with Barclaycard. Give it a try.


“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

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Hi coops

 

I tend to agree with sgirl. I recently won a case where the Judge ruled that there was unproven title (MKDP had not demonstrated that they owned the debt), and opened with 'it is for the claimant to prove not for you to disprove'.

 

x

 

vic

 

Except that in this case the defendant, coops999, has to show the balance of probability as he’s bringing the application! Link has so far taken no action.

 

(Mind you, MKDP are even more stupid than HFO ever were!)


“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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By the way, coops, I think your point in the set aside app, that your SARs were not dealt with, is a fair point to put, especially as a litigant in person – your argument must be that your knowledge of the alleged debt is very limited, and that you have been denied the chance to ascertain whether it was rightfully due or whether you had recourse to the courts to overturn the judgment and CO. The previous debt owners failed to discharge a legal requirement, and the current owners are making legal claims that it’s irrelevant. That may be a tad misleading.

 

As to timings, you must strongly plead the litigant in person point and a total lack of procedural knowledge. Just apologise lots for your ignorance, and hope you get a sympathetic judge.

 

Having said that, you are climbing one f’ing great mountain here. You need 90% luck and 10% argument to hit a bullseye.

 

Dig into the areas I’ve mentioned to see if there’s anything you can add. First of all, call Barclaycard and hope they have some data on their systems.


“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

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By the way, both HFO Capital Ireland and HFO Services have been given trading licences by the CFA and show their trading address as Turnbull Rutherford’s offices in Chiswick.


“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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Have a look at post #19 here, in this thread. There’s loads to tell the judge. It’s not strictly relevant, but it adds colour. It’s clear that HFO Capital claim to own the debt and the CO, so how could HFO Services have sold it to Link?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?437613-Rutherford-HFO-Capital-Ltd-amp-HFO-Services-Ltd-2007-BC-debt-now-LINK-set-aside-hearing

 

So your set aside argument should simply raise the point that there is uncertainty in the true ownership. HFO have lost cases on issues of assignment, most notably in HFO v Michael Burney, here:

 

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2011/23.html

 

I had a weeny bit of input to that. Amazingly, it was the OFT ordered the transcript, I believe...


“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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