Can JS28 help me with Seetec MWA start?

[Mcall]

Hello, I've found myself in a bit of a bind with my new adviser and was hoping for some advice please.

 

Brief backstory: I transferred my claim from a different London borough a few months ago. Big mistake. My previous adviser was honorable and had integrity. She could see I was doing everything I could to get a job and as a result we had mutual respect.

 

I met my new "Work Coach" on Friday and immediately we took a dislike to each other. She has put me on MWA starting Tuesday. I am angry for myself (of course) and also angry on behalf of my fellow man - WHY in the hell would any big business pay money for Xmas relief staff when they can get people like me to do it for free under threat of sanction? (But mainly I'm pee'd off for myself - over Xmas there is usually a 2 week break from signing, so 4 weeks where I would be left alone, and my JSA would go through automatically). Now I have to do 4 weeks of this MWA scrubbing graffiti off park toilets or some such other delight over Xmas period and will be sanctioned if I miss a day!)

 

I'm not naturally a cynical person who looks to exploit the system, but I read a thread about JS28? Which allows you a period of 14 days illness. I've never missed a signing before so am free to use this. My question is I feel I might be ill for a couple of weeks on Tuesday If I use this form will it get me out legitimately from doing this Seetec Slavery until the New Year? Or will they sanction me?

 

Despite what you all may think reading this, the JCP really has pushed me to the limit recently, so I'm looking for anything I can do legally to avoid a sanction, avoid MWA and still get my JSA over Xmas period. Thanks if you've read this far.

[Mr.P]

Have you been assigned a MWA placement yet, or is it just a referral to Seetec ?

 

If the latter, you have plenty of scope to challenge a placement in the run up to Christmas, for example:

 

• Does the placement displace a paid worker
  
• Is it "of benefit to the community"
  
• What risk assessments have been carried out
  
• Is it relevant to the job goals of the claimant
  

If the placement has already been made, ask for a mandatory reconsideration using any/all of the above, and don't be afraid to publicise the guilty party - If it is a temporary placement at somewhere like Argos or Homebase, then it most likely falls foul of the "displacing a paid worker" criteria.

 

I wouldn't recommend falsifying a JSA28 as it may come back and bite you with at some point in the future.

[Mcall]

Thanks for response Mr.P. Not assigned yet - adviser made a phone call as I was sitting there for my usual signing, then printed me off a letter which I had to sign to say I'd received saying that Seetec would contact me now I'd been mandated. (I read it carefully before signing, but nothing I could readily challenge in letter). I DID make a big fuss about being contacted by phone, saying I was aware that any mandated attendance must be sent via letter (as I read on this forum). My adviser then got really sh*tty and said (and I quote) "Oh, so you spend your time finding out what you can't do rather than looking for what you can, I'm only trying to help you with this MWA because you have gaps in your CV). Grrrrrr.

 

The whole vibe of the conversation went downhill after that point. I made her write in the onscreen notes that I needed to receive instruction about my first appointment in writing, as I didn't always carry my phone with me, and didn't have credit to return missed calls). She added it under protest, but also wrote that she'd told me I MUST answer my phone, whether it's caller withheld or number unknown and to carry my phone with me at all times. I agreed she had said that.

 

What should be my next move? Should I take the call when Seetec ring to arrange my appointment tomorrow? Should I ignore and wait for a letter? I am brutally skint at the moment, and can't risk a sanction this close to Christmas - I don't want to be the most legally correct yet sanctioned man come Xmas Day! But I will do anything to get out of this MWA bullcrap (having spent two years with Ingeus back in 2009-2011 which hand on my heart nearly finished me off)

[SabreSheep]

You must answer your phone huh?

 

May i suggest a very loud prolongued toiler experience at the next time they phone

[Mr.P]

The whole vibe of the conversation went downhill after that point. I made her write in the onscreen notes that I needed to receive instruction about my first appointment in writing, as I didn't always carry my phone with me, and didn't have credit to return missed calls). She added it under protest, but also wrote that she'd told me I MUST answer my phone, whether it's caller withheld or number unknown and to carry my phone with me at all times. I agreed she had said that.

 

You are unemployed. How can you be expected to pay for a mobile phone along with essentials such as food, heating, council tax, etc... I'd have told them that a telephone was one expense too far and any contact numbers were to be removed forthwith.

 

In any event, you are correct in stating that all mandatory notifications from Seetec must be in writing and posted in good time.

[Mcall]

Hi, I've just turned on my phone this morning and can see a voicemail message from a missed call number withheld (which often means it's from a switchboard), so I'm guessing it's probably Seetec. I actually don't have credit to check message as I only get free texts a month.

Can I just double-check with anyone out there that not taking the call and waiting for the mandatory letter instead won't get me sanctioned?

Thanks.

[biggeorge]

Hi Mcall,

The missed phone call I would not worry about, Just wait for the letter from them. Its hardly your fault if you can't afford to charge your mobile phone up or it

got lost or broken last week.

 

The JSA28 is quite good and very easy to fill in as I had to fill my first one in last month, Pulled my back out moving some crap out of my cellar. I filled it in for the full 14 days allowed and my wife dropped it into the JCP on my original signing day, no breaks of any payments, For once DWP and JCP got something correct.

 

If you have someone who can drop off your filled in JSA28 around the normal time you sign it seems to work perfect like you attended, there again it also depends on who your adviser is and if they are helpful.

 

Loads of cold and flu bugs around this time of year, Good Luck and have a merry Xmas/New Year.

 

George

[Mcall]

Thanks biggeorge, you've really helped put my mind at ease. I'll wait for the letter from Seetec and just keep my phone switched off then. Trouble is my new adviser really gunning for me now, after our slanging match on Friday, so she's looking for any excuse to sanction me (she almost said as much - wish I could've recorded it!)

 

I hate feeling like this, scared of the phone ringing, always remembering what is coming up with a feeling of dread - all to get a few quid JSA. But if I get sanctioned just before Xmas... Honestly doesn't bear thinking about. Some people like my adviser must have no conscience, compassion or humanity.

[biggeorge]

I recently had an adviser like that, at the time I was on the NEA where I did not have to provide any job search as I was preparing for my self employment.

Crappy hosting service I used had a fault and I lost my web site and had to start again.

Took a a printed email out from them explaining the problem but my adviser was having none of it, I knew I had 13 weeks from my business plan been approved to

signing off JSA and going onto the NEA payments and I told her so. She was adamant I only had 2 more weeks and I would be put back onto JSA and job searching.

 

I tried to explain to her and tried to show her the letter from the hosting company who messed up but she wasn't interested so I told her I would be making a formal complaint

to the manager about her in writing as I wasn't happy.

Got home that day and had a message on my other phone I use for JCP and it was my adviser, She had looked into the regulations and I was correct I did have 13 weeks which took

me into November, She even apologised which shocked me so much as she was one of the most hated hard-face advisers there.

 

Next signing I was moved from her caseload and given a new adviser who so far seems brilliant, Understands the problems I am under with the loss of my finished web site and

seems a genuine guy, We will see though.

 

George

[Nystagmite]

JS28 is for those who are ill. Not for those who can't be bothered to turn up to MWA.

[miley_b ob]

JS28 is for those who are ill. Not for those who can't be bothered to turn up to MWA.

 

 

 

Totally agree, by using the JSA28 when you are not actually sick, you are just delaying the inevitable. The added consequence is that despite what some people think the staff at the JCP are not stupid and will realise what you are doing. This will just make it more likely that they will look for any reason possible to sanction you in the future.

[Mr.P]

From a post a few days ago:

But to get my JSA pittance each week I'm willing to do what the system asks of me. Not TOO arduous really?

 

There are other ways of delaying or avoiding MWA, but sending in a JSA28 will cause problems when you really do need it. Now that the referral has been made to Seetec, you will have to go when summoned or incur a sanction - The actual MWA placement is still some way off as they will need to find something suitable first.

[Mcall]

From a post a few days ago:

 

 

There are other ways of delaying or avoiding MWA, but sending in a JSA28 will cause problems when you really do need it. Now that the referral has been made to Seetec, you will have to go when summoned or incur a sanction - The actual MWA placement is still some way off as they will need to find something suitable first.

 

Yes, but when "summoned" by phone or by mandated letter only? Can someone please clarify the facts?

[Mcall]

Also, who decides what is a "suitable placement"? My previous work experience is all in Education, so if they offer me a placement working in retail (which is most likely as that's where the free slave labour is needed this close to Xmas), can I say "not suitable", - I'm guessing they'll reply, DO IT OR SANCTION! What do I then do please?

[think about it]

I'm assuming that the definition of 'suitable' might be quite broad. If a placement addresses a gap in somone's experience it could be defined as suitable.

 

One thing is pretty much certain, even if you do log a JS28 you'll only delay the inevitable and, if it's not genuine, put yourself at greater risk of being found out. I'm sure we'd all love 4 weeks off over christmas but for most of us it's not the case.

Edited December 1, 2014 by think about it
typo!

[Mcall]

Can anyone answer my question please. If I wanted just personal opinions and judgement I'd go down the pub (if I could afford to!)

[Mr.P]

Yes, but when "summoned" by phone or by mandated letter only? Can someone please clarify the facts?

 

See DWP issued guidance: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mandatory-work-activity-dwp-provider-guidance

 

Engagement Activity

3.17 Prior to start you are required to conduct engagement activity with the

claimant.

 

3.18 How the engagement activity is undertaken is at your discretion but it

must include as a minimum:

• the issuing of a formal notification letter (see template at Annex 2);

[see docs for further requirements].

 

3.19 The initial notification letter must be issued in hard copy. It is not

acceptable to use electronic methods such as email or text. You may hand

the letter direct to the claimant, or send it by post. You should keep a record

of how and when the letter was issued to the claimant.

 

3.20 You must allow reasonable notice between the date of issuing the

notification and the work placement start date.

[Mcall]

Brilliant, thanks Mr.P.

[Lapsed Workaholic]

As I understand it the Work Coach refers the Claimant to a MWA Provider. She does not actually arrange the Placement herself. From what you have written the Provider appears to be Seetec.

The procedure is that your Coach should have phoned Seetec while you were there and sorted out; 1) whether there was a suitable placement available for you, and 2) fix a date and time for Seetec to contact you for the purpose of discussing with you and determining what sort of placement would suit your needs, including location etc. The Provider will then send you a letter confirming what you agreed to and giving the place, location and starting time for the placement.

The letter that you were asked to sign at the interview with your Coach merely informs you that you are being referred to Seetec for the purpose of arranging for you a MWA placement. That letter should include the name of the Provider that you are being referred to and the date and time that said Provider will contact you. The initial contact is by phone and there is no question of it costing you anything since they will be calling you. That is the whole point of the letter and by signing it that is all you have agreed to so far.

Only an idiot would suggest that you have agreed to, or accepted, a placement at this stage when one has not been offered and you have no idea what it might involve, or even that there is a placement available for you. The MWA Guidance gives detailed information about what is involved in a placement and how it can be refused unless certain conditions applicable to you are taken into account. You can’t do any of that until you find out more about the placement.

Seeking to deceive and defraud the Government can only lead to much more serious consequence for you, but that’s your affair. Seeking the help of this forum to conspire in illegal activity thereby implicating it could have serious consequences for many thousands who rely on it for genuine advice. It isn’t as if one has to be a genius or a criminal mastermind to outwit DWP staff.

I’m sorry that all I can offer you is more advice, opinions and judgement based on personal experience and what I have learned by heeding sound advice from the many well informed contributors to this forum and by reading the appropriate information provided on the DWP site itself and other useful sites. If all the thanks that those who took the time and trouble to give you the benefit of their opinions and judgements is to throw it back in their faces then perhaps the pubs and the dens frequented by the criminal fraternity would be more suitable places to cater for your needs.

[leicesterguy]

chances are you would have been referred by your old advisor sooner or later, Just bite the bullet and get it over with it, Its only four weeks and they will be others there in the same boat. (they also have to be community projects or charity shops).

 

Did mwa last year (did not want too) but was nowhere near as bad as its made out to be. as I said where others their in same boat and never came close to breaking sweat (spent more time in then canteen than working

 

also doing it over xmas the scheme will be closed for part of the time and I think the two part weeks you will do will count as full weeks so you will end up doing less than 20 days (if the scheme is closed 24th, 25th and 26th Dec you will only work two days that week but will be classed as the full five) and the same the next week which will be new years week.

Edited December 1, 2014 by leicesterguy

[Tj rodgers]

Hi, I've just turned on my phone this morning and can see a voicemail message from a missed call number withheld (which often means it's from a switchboard), so I'm guessing it's probably Seetec. I actually don't have credit to check message as I only get free texts a month.

Can I just double-check with anyone out there that not taking the call and waiting for the mandatory letter instead won't get me sanctioned?

Thanks.

Even if you fill in a sick form they will just send you back to mwa when your 14 days is up

[Mcall]

Even if you fill in a sick form they will just send you back to mwa when your 14 days is up

 

Sure, but that'll be in the New Year and I'm hoping I'll have sorted out a real adult paying job by then to avoid this waste of my time bull placement

[Chester6]

If you do forced labour I doubt they can forced you in when the sanction centre is closed

Re phone: it's their latest common attitude sadly, they can't force you to answer your phone I think but it seems a common tactic to be a bully and order people around under threats, these types claim you must have a phone to Jobseek and you just live and breathe jobsearch and yet they'll send you on forced labour?

[Chester6]

I can't see how they can sanction you for not answering the phone tbh

[Lapsed Workaholic]

Mr Mcall has already stated that he has signed a document confirming his acceptance of taking up the offer of MWA and being available and willing to accept a call from the Provider to discuss and consider same.

 

Any reservations he may have about accepting MWA should have been raised with the adviser at the interview where he agreed to the above.

 

What he appears to be asking now is advice on how to renege on or circumvent the agreement already made with the JCP adviser. He does not appear to want to take the advice offered that his best option now is to exercise his right to negotiate with the Provider and either turn down any offer made by them due to their inappropriateness or accept one on his terms. He can use his own personal circumstance to do this successfully if only he based his argument on what is acceptable as reasonable objections in the Guidance.

 

He can’t do that if he continues to refuse to accept the Provider’s call.

How he can so confidently assert the any placement offered will be ‘bull’ eludes me unless he knows something for a fact that he has so far not seen fit to divulge.

 

By refusing to do what he has signed up to do, which is so far merely to accept a Provider’s call to discuss MWA, he is assisting the Jobcentre in setting himself up for what he is desperately seeking to avoid, a sanction.

A claimant has the right to insist that he/she not be contacted by phone and give legitimate reasons why he/she insists on it. One does this before agreeing to be so contacted, not after.