Capital One - going to court

[Splashy]

I received an offer from CapitalOne for £6185

This was made up from £3050 in premiums, £2370 in interest and £958 in further 8% interest.

 

Putting all the premiums into a compound interest calculator resulted in compound interest of £13,000

 

Am I correct to use compound interest in my calculations?

 

The £958 in 8% interest .. where does that come from? What is it 8% of? I was told on the phone that it is 8% of the amount I would have saved if I had not had the PPI. Should I not also be receiving that amount I would have saved (which comes to the amount of compound interest).

 

The PPI was on a credit card which ran from April 2004 to October 2012.

[dx100uk]

f you have all the statements

 

you could tryythe FOSrunning sheet

[Splashy]

f you have all the statements

 

you could tryythe FOSrunning sheet

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

I do have all statements by virtue of a SAR. I am not sure what the FOS running sheet is, I just used one of the spreadsheets that I got from here.

 

I guess I do not understand whether I can claim compound interest or not and where the 8% comes from.

[dx100uk]

sri link didn't show

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?330996-Latest-Spreadsheets-PPI-Claims-and-Charges-Claims-Dec-2011

[Splashy]

sri link didn't show

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?330996-Latest-Spreadsheets-PPI-Claims-and-Charges-Claims-Dec-2011

 

I really do appreciate your answers and I have made a donation via paypal.

I am a bright person with a degree and 30 years of experience as a software developer, my mathematics are excellent.

 

The problem for me is the wealth of information. I have done my work beforehand and am not posting blind.

 

I cannot understand how they can offer me 8% interest which comes in at £958 and still only offer £2370 in interest.

 

The premiums I paid were £3050. Dating back to 2004.

 

 

If they want to put me back in the situation I would have been if I had not taken out PPI

then surely the premiums should be repaid along with the interest that I paid on them.

This will be compound interest since the £30 I paid in April 2004 has had interest applied at a rate of 27.81 (from Capital One).

 

When I phoned today then the guy on the phone said that it was miscalculated and that he would get a manager to call me.

When the manager called me she said that the calculations were correct.

This cannot be taken at face value since they are not likely to admit that they are miscalculating payments .. obviously this could cause problems for them.

 

I have another claim with Barclaycard where they have lied to me on numerous occasions and miscalculated.

If I cannot claim compound interest except through restitution via a court then I need to know this.

The FOS have said to me that they do not get involved in calculations and that I should get back to the institution involved.

 

What you can claim is NOT clear and the "complicated" calculations that banks use to calculate PPI is NOT clear.

I appreciate that you have sent me links to the spreadsheet and I have pasted in the data I have but it still requires more.

I guess I will have to go back through my SAR and enter all the info.

I have already wasted so many hours of my life on this and I need to know whether it is all going to be worth it.

 

I have recorded every single conversation that I have ever had with all claims and so can prove that Barclaycard have a policy of lying to customers

and deliberately misleading them.

I just need to know where I stand as regarding compound interest and I think that many people also need to know what their position is.

 

Just in need you would like to check, my transaction Id for PayPal is 21V43746RT513381B

[dx100uk]

we have found in the past that the FOSrunning sheet

although a right pain

 

nearly always get the job done,

 

it works out both.

 

dx

[caro]

8% simple interest is what courts can award for cases under section 69 of the County Courts Act and is for claims where there's normally no other interest rate applicable. Obviously it benefits cap 1 to pay that rather than what they charged you.

 

I know which I'd want!!

[Splashy]

we have found in the past that the FOSrunning sheet

although a right pain

 

nearly always get the job done,

 

it works out both.

 

dx

 

Yep, right pain !

 

I have done it though and the total comes to just over £18,000

I did note that in the PPI Balance at month start has the function =IF(E18="","",IF(E18>=0,0,I17+F18)), I think that this should be =IF(E18="","",IF(E18>=0,I17+F18,0))

 

My question now is when can the Redress calculation be used.

 

CapitalOne are likely to stick to their £6 K calculation so do I have to go to court for this amount. Under what grounds am I asking for redress.

 

Capital One's calculations are so different surely they have a precedent for using these calculations or are they simply trying their luck with every single customer and only using the proper calculations if caught out, in which case they are likely to settle out of court.

[Splashy]

we have found in the past that the FOSrunning sheet

although a right pain

 

nearly always get the job done,

 

it works out both.

 

dx

 

Yep, right pain !

 

I have done it though and the total comes to just over £18,000

I did note that in the PPI Balance at month start has the function =IF(E18="","",IF(E18>=0,0,I17+F18)), I think that this should be =IF(E18="","",IF(E18>=0,I17+F18,0))

 

My question now is when can the Redress calculation be used.

 

CapitalOne are likely to stick to their £6 K calculation so do I have to go to court for this amount. Under what grounds am I asking for redress.

 

Capital One's calculations are so different surely they have a precedent for using these calculations or are they simply trying their luck with every single customer and only using the proper calculations if caught out, in which case they are likely to settle out of court.

[dx100uk]

it might be an idea to ask IMS21 to pop into your thread via a PM.

 

and also attach the spreadsheet too

 

but please remove you pers details.

 

you can attach things via the bottom right go advanced button.

 

dx

[ims21]

The redress you are entitled to under a regulatory award is as follows:-

 

1 -> A refund of all of the premiums paid

 

2 -> A refund of all contractual interest charged on those premiums

 

3 -> The account should be reconstructed with the above removed from the account. Where the reconstruction shows that in any month the account would have been in credit, 8% simple is awarded on that credit balance for that month.

 

4 -> If the account has been paid off and closed there will be a difference between the amount paid off and the reconstructed balance. 8% simple is awarded on that difference running from the date of payment up to the date of settlement of the claim.

[Splashy]

I have now got a pretty good understanding of how to calculate what should be due according to the criteria that you listed above.

 

I have made numerous spreadsheets and they all come to roughly the same value.

 

The key thing is that if they calculate the 8% to be £958 then the additional element due must be 100/8 * £958 (this is the interest and premiums paid that they calculated in order to get to the £958)

 

As I said, a guy on the phone confirmed that my calculation was incorrect (recorded) but they are saying that I can refer to FOS but they will reject since it is over 6 months.

 

They refuse to move on their original offer and despite numerous requests for them to detail their calculations they have refused to do so.

 

They have offered me some £6500 and because of a company that I worked for going into Administration and owing me over £8000 I could REALLY do with the cash.

 

In their acceptance letter they state that I must agree to not taking any further action against them.

 

In an ideal scenario for me I would bank this and then go for the rest, this would also make the County Court claim cheaper and it would also mean that I could afford to do so.

 

Would acceptance of their offer mean that I could not pursue them in the court for the additional funds (over £10,000)?

 

I'm in a really bad place at the moment and really need to resolve this but don't want to accept £6,000 when I know that it should be £18,000

[ims21]

The 8% simple is paid only when.....

 

a) the reconstructed account shows a credit balance for a particular month and you only get 8% simple on that credit balance for that month.

 

b) if the account was paid off and closed then 8% simple is awarded on the difference between the amount paid of and the reconstructed balance running from the date of payment to the date of settlement of the claim.

 

That really is it as far as 8% goes.

 

If you sign an acceptance letter saying you will not take further action then I think a court would be hard pushed to allow a claim.

 

Why not complain to fos that they will not let you have a detailed breakdown. If the actual PPI claim is out of time for fos then they may still be able to force Cap1 to give you the breakdown.

[dx100uk]

you cross out the restrictions you do not like and sign and return.

 

 

dx

[dx100uk]

can you post up you spreadsheet please

 

 

you calc's don't appear correctly thought out.

 

 

dx

[Splashy]

I attach my latest spreadsheet.

 

The key thing here is that they offered me £900 for the 8% additional interest. This corresponds to the interest and premiums paid in reconstructing the balance as well as the amount that my account would have been in credit were I to not have had the PPI.

 

£900 corresponds to some £12000 and I am entitled to that back as well.

 

My calculations do not include interest up to today and are only for interest up till the date that the PPI was cancelled.

 

There are lots of interpretations of PPI and the banks seem to use quite a unique one but if they have got the 8% right then I should be entitled to 12.5 * the 8% value at least. That is why I believe that their total of £7000 cannot be correct.

[Splashy]

I was made an offer by Capital One in October 2013. As soon as I received the offer I questioned the amount and asked for full calculations.

 

Due to handling another tricky claim with Mastercard I put this one on the back burner and only addressed it again in September.

 

I spoke with Capital One and they agreed that it had been miscalculated. They offered £2000 in interest yet calculated the 8% as £900 .... which means that the payments plus interest MUST be 12.5 * £900.

 

I have again asked for detailed calculations but they have declined to send these to me.

 

I am opening a small claims for the full amount owed and will let you know how this goes.

 

Their correspondence says that I cannot take this to FOS since it is over 6 months after their final response. I reply that since they have not given me full calculations I cannot agree to their offer.

 

I cannot see how they can defend their position in court, especially given the recorded conversation where their representative states that he agrees with me and the amount cannot be correct.

 

Wish me luck .....

[caro]

Good luck!

[SabreSheep]

Please can you keep this thread upfdated with your progress.

 

I may be looking to take HSBC to court for flexi loan PPI

They too have upheld complaint and offered 8% but not the CI charged onb the preimiums nor the informal overdraft requests created by the accuring balance of premims+Interest+charges as a result.

 

Your Particulate of Claim etc would be handy to see. (Remove personal details of course)

[citizenB]

Splashy, can you please update your thread. The whole point of Consumer Action Group is that people share their experiences in order to help others

[Splashy]

Hi Everyone,

 

Here is the long awaited update but it is more in the form of a question as to whether I am going mad.

 

The attached spreadsheet contains 3 sheets.

 

Month by Month data is the sheet that they sent me, it does not contain any calculations only values.

Summary of redress is what they offered.

Calculations including CI is my attempt to make sense of their calculations.

 

Looking at Calculations including CI ..

 

I tried to work out how they got the column T of Associated Interest since it is this column that gives the associated interest used for the redress.

I created column U which I calculated by multiplying the PPI premium by the interest rate (on cash advances). I then add to it the previous month's interest.

 

I pretty accurately recreate column T which means that the only difference is in the interest rate used.

 

Capital One state that they pay interest on the interest (ie compound interest) so I created the columns W and X. In this I added the interest from the previous month to the PPI premium and then multiplied it by the interest rate (again cash advances).

 

I contend that Capital One are NOT paying interest on the interest from the previous month as stated "we add interest onto the interest we refunded for the previous month”

 

In my conversations with Capital One they have stressed that the calculations are very complex. I believe that they may be BUT it must be more than a coincidence that the column T adds up EXACTLY to the associated interest that they are offering.

 

 

Your input would be very much appreciated.

[caro]

I was made an offer by Capital One in October 2013. As soon as I received the offer I questioned the amount and asked for full calculations.

 

Due to handling another tricky claim with Mastercard I put this one on the back burner and only addressed it again in September.

 

I spoke with Capital One and they agreed that it had been miscalculated. They offered £2000 in interest yet calculated the 8% as £900 .... which means that the payments plus interest MUST be 12.5 * £900.

 

I have again asked for detailed calculations but they have declined to send these to me.

 

I am opening a small claims for the full amount owed and will let you know how this goes.

 

Their correspondence says that I cannot take this to FOS since it is over 6 months after their final response. I reply that since they have not given me full calculations I cannot agree to their offer.

 

I cannot see how they can defend their position in court, especially given the recorded conversation where their representative states that he agrees with me and the amount cannot be correct.

 

Wish me luck .....

 

Hi Everyone,

 

Here is the long awaited update but it is more in the form of a question as to whether I am going mad.

 

The attached spreadsheet contains 3 sheets.

 

Month by Month data is the sheet that they sent me, it does not contain any calculations only values.

Summary of redress is what they offered.

Calculations including CI is my attempt to make sense of their calculations.

 

Looking at Calculations including CI ..

 

I tried to work out how they got the column T of Associated Interest since it is this column that gives the associated interest used for the redress.

I created column U which I calculated by multiplying the PPI premium by the interest rate (on cash advances). I then add to it the previous month's interest.

 

I pretty accurately recreate column T which means that the only difference is in the interest rate used.

 

Capital One state that they pay interest on the interest (ie compound interest) so I created the columns W and X. In this I added the interest from the previous month to the PPI premium and then multiplied it by the interest rate (again cash advances).

 

I contend that Capital One are NOT paying interest on the interest from the previous month as stated "we add interest onto the interest we refunded for the previous month”

 

In my conversations with Capital One they have stressed that the calculations are very complex. I believe that they may be BUT it must be more than a coincidence that the column T adds up EXACTLY to the associated interest that they are offering.

 

 

Your input would be very much appreciated.

 

 

I'm still not clear what's going on here. Have you started a claim and what help are you looking for?

 

 

Why are you focussing so much on how they have made their calculations? Surely what matters is how much you are owed and (if different), how much you are prepared to accept.

 

 

If you have calculated the correct amount, surely other calculations are irrelevant. If you aren't happy with what they offer then see them in court.

[dx100uk]

does your FOSrunning sheet correspond to the redress offered.

 

 

I bow to IMS21 superior calcs knowledge which was referred too months ago.

 

 

dx

[caro]

I've looked at the spreadsheet and without formulae throughout it's hard to see where the calculations come from. What is clear is that the interest needs to be up to the date paid, so cannot be a fixed amount. You really need to do as dx says and put all the information into the FOS running sheet to see what figure that comes up with and use that as the basis for your claim.

[Splashy]

I have put it into a FOS running spreadsheet and the total comes to £17,000

 

Capital One dismissed this out of hand. That's not the way that the calculate the interest.

 

What I can say with 100% confidence is that their offer of associated interest does not pay "interest on interest". They calculate the interest from a particular month and then add it to the previous months interest.

 

The reason that I am slightly nervous about going to court if that they refuse to give me all the calculations and they have warned me saying that they would be getting legal representation and charging me for their time looking into my claim.

 

One avenue is to team up with a claims management company. They would have the deep pockets to provide a good lawyer and their reward would be substantial.