PIP Tribunal

[roundthegasworks]

Like the name suggests I have tangles with most government offices over the past 5 years. I'm now back with the DWP again.

I put in for a claim of PIP last year which failed as did the reconsideration. So back to a Tribunal on Monday (24th). My argument with the DWP all the way through is that they have no obtained any independent evidence from either the GP, the Consultant or the Social Worker. They have only relied on the meeting I had with their medical people and the claim form.

Now I have researched and researched and in every case based on government sites it clearly says that ATOS are responsible for getting independent evidence to back up my claim. I don't have any evidence at all to prove what I say.

So I am expecting ATOS to be fair and ask for it AND PAY FOR IT! I don't have the money and cannot start chasing around everywhere.

Does anybody have any definite sources from the net that confirms what I am going to say to the Tribunal?

[Lilly_Monroe]

Like the name suggests I have tangles with most government offices over the past 5 years. I'm now back with the DWP again.

I put in for a claim of PIP last year which failed as did the reconsideration. So back to a Tribunal on Monday (24th). My argument with the DWP all the way through is that they have no obtained any independent evidence from either the GP, the Consultant or the Social Worker. They have only relied on the meeting I had with their medical people and the claim form.

Now I have researched and researched and in every case based on government sites it clearly says that ATOS are responsible for getting independent evidence to back up my claim. I don't have any evidence at all to prove what I say.

So I am expecting ATOS to be fair and ask for it AND PAY FOR IT! I don't have the money and cannot start chasing around everywhere.

Does anybody have any definite sources from the net that confirms what I am going to say to the Tribunal?

 

 

I failed my PIP medical and asked for a mandatory reconsideration.

I was told before the medical and by the DWP after I had failed it that the onus is on US to make sure WE submit the evidence from our GPs, consultants or anyone else who treats us.

 

Maybe it does say that ATOS shoild be the ones to collect that info, but they seem not to, (the back log on medicals is vast) I waited a year for mine. and I think seeing as the medical is only important to us, we should make sure that any/all evidence is submitted, and not leave it up to them - at least that way we know they have it.

 

DWP told me that without further written evidence then the failure will probably stand, (it might even stand with the further evidence from my GP and CPN) but I am getting written reports from both.

 

I do not have the money, and find chasing/asking very difficult, but needs must.

[roundthegasworks]

Thanks, at least I am not the only one that is having to go through this.

Do you know I have read countless documents and forms including going through the last review calling for evidence in June and they all say that the claimant is NOT required to send in any evidence at all. The government make a point in saying that it is for ATOS or CAPITA to request the evidence if they feel that it will help to give a more balanced opinion.

Why on earth you were told this I don't know but it goes against what the government say.

My Tribunal is on Monday so not able to get any reports and couldn't afford them even if I asked. Besides which I have no idea who to ask or what to say. I'm just going ahead to tell the Tribunal that what I put on the form is true and that if they want to confirm it they should make ATOS get the evidence for me/them.

Why should we do all of the running about when it isn't our job to do it?

If my appeal fails I'll just put another claim in and carry on doing so until someone does something.

[Nystagmite]

It's you that has to prove what needs you have. Not ATOS. They will only ask for evidence if they feel they can't reach a decision and need more evidence.

 

It's not their problem if you can't afford to pay for the evidence.

 

It doesn't matter whether you say that what you've written on the form is true - you have to prove that it's true.

 

At my DLA tribunal, they cancelled (plenty of notice) because they wanted more evidence and wrote to me to ask for my permission to obtain evidence from my GP and consultant. A form was sent to my consultant for him to fill in. This, I believe, is how I managed to win.

[roundthegasworks]

It's you that has to prove what needs you have. Not ATOS. They will only ask for evidence if they feel they can't reach a decision and need more evidence.

 

It's not their problem if you can't afford to pay for the evidence.

 

It doesn't matter whether you say that what you've written on the form is true - you have to prove that it's true.

 

At my DLA tribunal, they cancelled (plenty of notice) because they wanted more evidence and wrote to me to ask for my permission to obtain evidence from my GP and consultant. A form was sent to my consultant for him to fill in. This, I believe, is how I managed to win.

 

 

No it isn't. Every document that I have read so far says that the claimant is not required to send in any evidence and they are not required to go hunting for it either.

This is an extract from the request for further evidence for a review by the government this year:

 

"Key to the accuracy and quality of the assessment is getting the best, most relevant evidence (known as further evidence) from a variety of sources including GPs, hospitals, social workers, family members, carers and existing DLA information. Claimants can send supporting evidence with their 'How your disability affects you' form but they do not have to do so. It is part of the Atos or Capita health professional’s role to consider what additional evidence will help them in providing advice on the claim to the DWP. They are responsible for requesting it from people listed on the claimants’ form where they feel it is necessary."

 

 

I have gone along with this statement and many more besides including what was on the claim from.

I don't have to prove anything it seems.

 

 

Do you have a link to anything official that will back up what you are saying?

 

 

How your claim ended up is how it should be except that the evidence should have been requested before they made the initial decision and not left until the day of the Tribunal hearing

 

 

I am hoping and expecting that the Tribunal should do the same for me as it is only fair.

 

 

[**Margaret**]

roundthegasworks,

 

'It will not always be necessary to request further evidence ......'

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers

(Section 2.3.7. - page 17)

 

Margaret.

 

[estellyn]

Yes, Atos have the primary responsibility to collect evidence that they deem is required for their assessment.

 

However, once they have made their decision and you are challenging it, it is for you to make a case at appeal including providing evidence you collect. You are in essence saying 'atos assessed me incorrectly', here is the evidence that proves it.

 

Regarding your appeal, with no evidence other than your own oral evidence, you can mention the evidence that your GP or consultant could provide (that you were unable to get in time for the hearing). This then gives the Judge the option of requesting your records from your GP and adjourning the hearing. Your best chance of success would be sitting down and typing up a submission - stating a paragraph history of your condition and treatment, a section on what is wrong with the Atos assessment and why, and then details of which descriptors you feel you meet and why. Also include an end paragraph about how no other evidence has been obtained from the health professionals you deal with, and that you have been unable to get it yourself, and that in the interests of justice, no decision on benefit should be made for you without the appropriate evidence being looked at. And then hope you get the adjournment (or that the Judge decides based on your oral and written evidence).

[Lilly_Monroe]

Well they collected NO evidence for me - and I know of others who they did likewise.

What it says, and what they do seem to be two different things.

[Nystagmite]

That's because they believe they have enough evidence to make a decision.

[roundthegasworks]

That's because they believe they have enough evidence to make a decision.

 

They may well have from the point of view of the DWP. But where in all of that is their responsibility to ensure that the decision is balanced based on evidence from my side of the fence (to back up what I put on the claim form?)

Or are you suggesting that there is a conspiracy with ATOS and the DWP involved?

The law is clearly on my side in that ATOS have to come to a balanced opinion. You seem to be also suggesting that ATOS will come up with their version without having to show why my claim form isn't also truthful.

Still, I'm in court tomorrow so we will have to see what happens. I can always put in another claim.

[Lilly_Monroe]

That's because they believe they have enough evidence to make a decision.

 

It's all wrong, most of us are sitting targets.

The first question at my medical was (how do does OCD effect you) I do not have OCD I told her this, she then went on to say, 'so you are not on any medication for it'!

 

I have since asked both my GP and my CPN is OCD mentioned on my records, their answer was NO not at all.

So what was that all about?

 

I think it is naive to believe that they will write to our GPs and whoever else is treating us before our medical perhaps some might, but not every medical. The expense and the time delay on an already stretched service would push it back even further.

[Lilly_Monroe]

That's because they believe they have enough evidence to make a decision.

Yes I agree - the miracle of a form and a 40 min medical seems to do the job (in their favour).

[estellyn]

It's all wrong, most of us are sitting targets.

The first question at my medical was (how do does OCD effect you) I do not have OCD I told her this, she then went on to say, 'so you are not on any medication for it'!

 

I have since asked both my GP and my CPN is OCD mentioned on my records, their answer was NO not at all.

So what was that all about?

 

I think it is naive to believe that they will write to our GPs and whoever else is treating us before our medical perhaps some might, but not every medical. The expense and the time delay on an already stretched service would push it back even further.

 

See, as claimants (and sick ones at that) we can either choose to get upset and indignant that the guidelines weren't followed, but in the end, it will be us who are without the benefit if the claim fails. I've always taken the view that I'll do anything possible to help the process along, I'd rather do that than have to deal with a recon or an appeal (and I say that as an ex benefit adviser). Having worked as a decision maker, as much as we want to do our best possible job for each claimant, with the workloads and pressures put on decision makers, and the lack of financial incentive for a company like atos or capita for doing a truly thorough assessment process, it is unlikely that the best work will be done on our behalf.

 

Is it right, no. But I prefer to be realistic and deal with the world as it is. The employees dealing with our claims or appeals are humans, they make mistakes, get things mixed up, have prejudices and biases. All we can do is do the best for ourselves to get ourselves the correct outcome. I'd rather rely on myself to gather evidence, than rely on a faceless, overworked employee to do it. No we shouldn't have to do it, but things aren't going to change any time soon.

[Lilly_Monroe]

See, as claimants (and sick ones at that) we can either choose to get upset and indignant that the guidelines weren't followed, but in the end, it will be us who are without the benefit if the claim fails. I've always taken the view that I'll do anything possible to help the process along, I'd rather do that than have to deal with a recon or an appeal (and I say that as an ex benefit adviser). Having worked as a decision maker, as much as we want to do our best possible job for each claimant, with the workloads and pressures put on decision makers, and the lack of financial incentive for a company like atos or capita for doing a truly thorough assessment process, it is unlikely that the best work will be done on our behalf.

 

Is it right, no. But I prefer to be realistic and deal with the world as it is. The employees dealing with our claims or appeals are humans, they make mistakes, get things mixed up, have prejudices and biases. All we can do is do the best for ourselves to get ourselves the correct outcome. I'd rather rely on myself to gather evidence, than rely on a faceless, overworked employee to do it. No we shouldn't have to do it, but things aren't going to change any time soon.

 

I agree, but what else can we/I do.

I provided evidence, I answered all the questions honestly (maybe that is where I go wrong) I do what is asked of me at the medical if I am able, I am always polite, apologetic if I feel I am the one who misunderstood anything - I DO, DO the best for myself, even more so because I live alone and have to do it for myself - either that or lie down and die.

 

I do think my decision was a snap shot of person with depression based on a face to face assessment of 40 mins...I have NO scars to show all I know is that functioning normally on a day to day level is not something that 'at the moment' is achievable for me, and it even looks as if my illness could be changing course as I am being assessed for bi polar.

You do not get to see a CPN for over 18months into days cut backs if the NH does not think you are ill and in need of help - it is also galling when the medical examiner ignores the letter from your CPN who in my case knows me far better than the examiner.

 

What more can anyone do to help themselves in those circumstances.

I accept information and facts get lost, misinterpreted - but when they are ignored is that not wrong/unfair to the claimant.

 

That is all I am questioning.

[estellyn]

That's what the appeals process (as horrible as it is) is for. You go to appeal, and if they ignore evidence you go to upper Tribunal. But the system isn't perfect, sadly, and inevitably there will be a few who the wrong decision is made.

 

I know it's a bad situation, and I sympathise. I've gone through the frustration of seeing a few clients who I felt should get an award, get refused, and I know the frustration I felt is nothing to what they were feeling.

[Lilly_Monroe]

That's what the appeals process (as horrible as it is) is for. You go to appeal, and if they ignore evidence you go to upper Tribunal. But the system isn't perfect, sadly, and inevitably there will be a few who the wrong decision is made.

 

I know it's a bad situation, and I sympathise. I've gone through the frustration of seeing a few clients who I felt should get an award, get refused, and I know the frustration I felt is nothing to what they were feeling.

 

 

Thanks Estellyn - none of my comments were aimed at you just letting off some steam.

 

I am just waiting for my letters from GP and CPN and going through the process step by step in the hope (you have always got to have/keep hope on board) that they will overturn the original verdict.

[estellyn]

Thanks Estellyn - none of my comments were aimed at you just letting off some steam.

 

I am just waiting for my letters from GP and CPN and going through the process step by step in the hope (you have always got to have/keep hope on board) that they will overturn the original verdict.

 

Good luck, I hope you're successful. Post if you need any advice on prepping your case, happy to help.

[id6052]

 

"Key to the accuracy and quality of the assessment is getting the best, most relevant evidence (known as further evidence) from a variety of sources including GPs, hospitals, social workers, family members, carers and existing DLA information. Claimants can send supporting evidence with their 'How your disability affects you' form but they do not have to do so. It is part of the Atos or Capita health professional's role to consider what additional evidence will help them in providing advice on the claim to the DWP. They are responsible for requesting it from people listed on the claimants' form where they feel it is necessary."

 

When they are saying the claimant can provide evidence but does not have to, they mean that the claimant cannot be forced to provide the evidence.

 

This does not mean that the claimant should not provide any evidence.

 

If there is evidence available to the claimant to strengthen their case, it is in their interest to provide it.

 

I would not rely on Atos or Capita obtaining the evidence, as although you may think it is necessary, they may not think it is necessary.

 

Saying the above, I did not provide any medical evidence to Atos, Capita or DWP, and my claim for PIP was successful.

I had expected it to be unsuccessful and was fully prepared to have to provide medical records and letters from GP and other health professionals if it had to go to tribunal.

 

Similarly, my father in law's IB was migrated to ESA(wrag), and we had to go to tribunal to get him put into support group. At the tribunal, me and my mother in law attended, and the appeal was allowed after about 5 or 10 minutes. We could not provide any medical evidence (as he did not engage with GP or other health professionals), we just explained how his health conditions affected him.

 

So it is possible to succeed without medical evidence, but it would be easier to succeed with medical evidence. The fight is hard enough without tying your own hands behind your back.

[Nystagmite]

That's so true, ID. I won my reconsideration with DLA when I first applied and didn't send any evidence in. They did however, contact my GP.